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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
Phat
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Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 127 (885334)
04-05-2021 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
04-05-2021 3:59 PM


Re: Random Acts Of Kindness.
To say that Jesus charged Christians to behave in a given fashion has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus lives or lived.
Which reduces Jesus to the same level as any other religious figure. Which is where you fall short. There may yet be hope for you if you keep doing what ________(insert religious character or charge here) said to do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 3:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 47 of 127 (885335)
04-05-2021 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
04-05-2021 4:03 PM


the topic
Phat writes:

jar writes:

To say that Jesus charged Christians to behave in a given fashion has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus lives or lived.

Which reduces Jesus to the same level as any other religious figure. Which is where you fall short. There may yet be hope for you if you keep doing what ________(insert religious character or charge here) said to do.

And consider the topic of this thread.

Belief vs the Scientific Method.

Why should anyone think Jesus is any different than any other religious figure?

When humans talk about or consider 'Jesus' they are simply using a symbol. It is as vague and internally inconsistent as 'apple'.

When humans use the the symbol Jesus it really has less absolute reality than the symbol 'Buddha' or 'Muhammad'. There is far more objective evidence that the two latter individuals actually did exist.

Humans use of the symbol 'Jesus' is far closer to their use of the symbol 'apple'; the symbol 'apple' can be red or green or yellow or multicolored or large or small or tart or sweet or soft or crisp or ...

The difference is that in a discussion when you use the symbol 'apple' there is at least a possibility that when asked "what do you mean apple" you might be able to add additional details and perhaps even a specific name to make sure both you and I imagine the same thing when you use the symbol 'apple'.

It's back towards some basics we've discussed many times.

Don't confuse the map for the territory. Don't confuse the symbol for the reality.

This exchange is critical to the topic.

On the belief side symbols are tossed out and accepted as the reality BUT, and it is a major but, none of the people on the belief side take the next step and ask 'When you use the symbol Jesus, what do you mean?"

When someone on the belief side says they are in communion with God no one raises their hand and asks "What do you mean?"

Belief equals everyone nodding their heads collectively.

The scientific method equals asking "Say what?"

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
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Posts: 8169
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 48 of 127 (885336)
04-05-2021 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2021 3:44 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
Phat writes:

But that's not fair. Why should you get to sit around in a warm house while I shiver under a bridge due to the fact that I gave up mine?

I think you should examine yourself on this statement Phat because it really challenges your belief.

You know that giving up everything and following Christ is what you are charged to do. You know it's not fair but you know that that is exactly the point because suffering on behalf of others in this world is rewarded in the next.

Do you not believe sufficiently in the afterlife to do what is necessary to achieve it in this?

You talk (commune) with god directly so surely he will have given you guidance on this. What does he have to say about your reluctance?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 616
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 49 of 127 (885337)
04-05-2021 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2021 3:44 PM


That bridge is Jesus' cathedral.
Phat writes:

Why should you get to sit around in a warm house while I shiver under a bridge due to the fact that I gave up mine?

But, but, but Phat, because Jesus tells you to: In Luke (the oldest and most authoritative of the gospels) 14:33:

“…those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.”

Only those that shivereth beneath the bridge shall gain the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus’ words, not mine)!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 04-05-2021 3:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
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Posts: 20116
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 50 of 127 (885339)
04-05-2021 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
04-05-2021 2:35 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
Phat writes:

We have been discussing this stuff here at EvC since roughly 2004. 17 years, jar.

Consistency should count for something, I guess.

--Percy

Edited by AdminPhat, : 17 not 27


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dwise1
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Posts: 4639
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 51 of 127 (885340)
04-05-2021 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tangle
04-05-2021 5:06 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
An old joke that is pertinent:
quote:
A Christian is walking all alone, by a cliff, slips, and falls over the side. A short distance down, however, he is able to catch hold of a tree root that's sticking out.

So there he is hanging onto a tree root over a long sheer drop, just as we've seen in so much popular media (see cliffhanger). Knowing that he's miles away from any human help, he prays to God to save him.

The clouds part and a Divine Voice calls out to him: "Have no fear, my son! Just have faith in Me and let go!"

Upon hearing this, the Christian considers for a moment what God had commanded him to do and responds: "Is there anybody else up there? I need a second opinion!"


Phat knows what he's supposed to do, but he keeps complaining that it's too hard and not fair. Which it isn't. Which is undoubtedly the point.

The Jesus Freaks I learned fundamentalism from circa 1970 spoke often of Jesus wanting followers whose faith was "hot" and not those whose faith was only "lukewarm" (ie, "I do believe, really I do! But I don't wanna act on it, to actually do what I'm told to!").

There's another teaching they gave me and that Pat Robertson used on a reporter during his presidential campaign. The reporter asked if a non-Christian could be saved and Pat replied that he could be but only if he followed all of Mosaic Law his entire life without fail or a single lapse. Having eyes to see and ears to hear (ie, having been taught the hidden meaning to the teachings and parables -- plus having hear that explicit teaching espoused), I immediately recognized that as their argument for why Christ is so necessary for salvation. God had given the Jews laws that He had deliberately made too impossible to be able to keep, so as to make Christ an absolute necessity.

Could this mean that Christ was Moses 2.0? That God also deliberately made following Christ just as hard to follow, if not more so? Why? Because God does have a Sense of Humor after all? Sick though it may be.

Edited by dwise1, : without fail or a single lapse


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ringo
Member
Posts: 19125
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 52 of 127 (885341)
04-05-2021 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2021 3:44 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
Phat writes:

Why should you get to sit around in a warm house while I shiver under a bridge due to the fact that I gave up mine?


Becuse that's what Jesus told you to do. It's the straight and narrow way.

Phat writes:

Jesus gave me the brains to keep my house for now.


He gave you the brains to ignore what he told you to do? That's an odd thing to say.

Phat writes:

He likely knows darn well that a guy in a warm house...perhaps even a guy who doesn't believe in Him...is far better equipped to give out spare change to His children under the bridge.


That doesn't make any sense. A house is worth a lot of spare change.

Phat writes:

A sheep cannot pull a sheep out of a ditch if it too is in the ditch.


He can push.

Phat writes:

A guy under a bridge cant very well help anyone....


Here's a story for you: Last summer, I was sitting outside the library using the wifi. I had just put my phone away and was sitting there getting ready to get up when a guy that I would have thought was homeless offered me a dollar. I had quite a time convincing him that I didn't need it.

So yes, homeless people can be generous, even if it's only with two mites.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 53 of 127 (885342)
04-05-2021 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
04-05-2021 3:44 PM


Apologists are us
Everyone else is giving you so much grief I just don’t feel right piling on, but, this is part of the fun in this place so here goes.

Ever stop to consider that the “drop everything and follow me” directive, in every parable where it shows up, is spiritual? Maybe what your Jesus was at was he wanted others to discard their old concepts of gods, discard their old beliefs and their old morals and take on his instead?

The stories may actually say drop everything, walk away from your old life and its possessions (beliefs?), go beg a pair of sandals and a bowl, meet me out back and walk your life’s path with me … but, is that what he was actually asking for?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8169
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 54 of 127 (885343)
04-06-2021 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Percy
04-05-2021 6:04 PM


Re: Frodo Lives
Percy writes:

Consistency should count for something, I guess.

Only if it can count at all. (17 years)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 04-05-2021 6:04 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 127 (885344)
04-06-2021 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by AZPaul3
04-05-2021 6:51 PM


Re: Apologists are us
AZPaul3 writes:

Ever stop to consider that the “drop everything and follow me” directive, in every parable where it shows up, is spiritual? Maybe what your Jesus was at was he wanted others to discard their old concepts of gods, discard their old beliefs and their old morals and take on his instead?

The stories may actually say drop everything, walk away from your old life and its possessions (beliefs?), go beg a pair of sandals and a bowl, meet me out back and walk your life’s path with me … but, is that what he was actually asking for?

I suppose you have an argument, but very few people see Jesus as a far Eastern Yogi. We could argue that the mythos was Westernized through European thought and could probably come up with a counter- argument from Byzantium, but why on earth for? You always like to throw a match on my straw-men, don't you? .

I prefer Western Mysticism.

jar always rains on my parade as well by preaching CONTENT over SOURCE. I tend to favor Holy Communion with SOURCE leading to better CONTENT, and would get frustrated and disillusioned were it found that Jesus actually was a simple human holy man on a par with any other mystic wandering down the pike. For me, the power is in the unique exclusivity.

Thats also why I like Isaiah Saldivar and the casting out of demons. Though I am not so naive to imagine a demon behind every coffee cup, I like the idea of a spiritual war and tend to study literature that supports such a scenario rather than Eastern mysticism which emphasizes human effort/surrender over Divine Intervention. To be fair, however, you could be right. Em searching for a personal validation and confirmation of His power in my life rather than some human suffrage where I have to do all the work and suffer and have no promise of a touch from the Creator.


jar writes:

Unfortunately neither truth not reality really care or depend on what someone favors.

Granted, but I dont see any more truth and "reality" in yur argument than I do in mine. You yourself have admitted that none of us know until we die (if even then).

dwise1 writes:

Could this mean that Christ was Moses 2.0? That God also deliberately made following Christ just as hard to follow, if not more so? Why? Because God does have a Sense of Humor after all? Sick though it may be.

I like the idea of God having a sense of humor...especially if it becomes a teachable moment!

AnswersInGenitals writes:

In Luke (the oldest and most authoritative of the gospels) 14:33:

“…those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.”

Only those that shivereth beneath the bridge shall gain the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus’ words, not mine)!

The irony burns! Here I am being taught by a bunch of atheists and secular humanists about my beliefs and my alleged lukewarmness. I DO like it better when you are attempting alternate explanations for Jesus charge upon my life rather than attempting to dismiss belief entirely.

Edited by Phat, : added quotes


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


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 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2021 6:51 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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 Message 61 by ringo, posted 04-06-2021 11:06 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 56 of 127 (885345)
04-06-2021 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
04-06-2021 8:23 AM


better content
Phat writes:

I tend to favor Holy Communion with SOURCE leading to better CONTENT, and would get frustrated and disillusioned were it found that Jesus actually was a simple human holy man on a par with any other mystic wandering down the pike.

Unfortunately neither truth not reality really care or depend on what someone favors.

AbE:

so what are some examples of better content that is dependent on the source?

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title & ABE

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin no v in source


My Website: My Website

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 127 (885346)
04-06-2021 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
04-06-2021 8:31 AM


Re: better content
jar writes:

so what are some examples of better content that is dependent on the source?

After editing my post, you will find I quoted many of my friendly critics, including yourself. AIG was particularly harsh yet instructive with his quote from Luke regarding Lacrosse.

You have brought these arguments up before and likely have a plethora of Bible characters in mind who respected the SOURCE yet were responsible for their own CONTENT and behavior in life. I'm encouraged to see more of us arguing against me and backing it with scripture, or in dwise1's case, personal experience.

Percy writes:

I've always thought this was the right forum to argue for other ways of knowing.

It looks as if you were right. Thanks.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 04-06-2021 8:31 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 127 (885347)
04-06-2021 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tangle
04-06-2021 2:41 AM


Re: Frodo Lives
Percy writes:

Consistency should count for something, I guess.

Tangle writes:

Only if it can count at all. (17 years)



"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2021 2:41 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15444
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 127 (885348)
04-06-2021 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
04-05-2021 4:29 PM


Re: the topic
jar writes:

And consider the topic of this thread.
Belief vs the Scientific Method.
Why should anyone think Jesus is any different than any other religious figure?


Apart from some of us(*cough*Myself*cough*) needing a Creator of all seen and unseen versus the god of the month, I recall a particular scripture...
John 8:48-59 ESV writes:

The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

You seem to think Christianity is about what we do.(CONTENT of character) and that SOURCE(Creator of all seen and unseen) is irrelevant. Or at least you favor that argument and vilify all of the apologists for some reason. Its OK, though. We don't need them.
jar writes:

When humans talk about or consider 'Jesus' they are simply using a symbol. It is as vague and internally inconsistent as 'apple'.

When humans use the the symbol Jesus it really has less absolute reality than the symbol 'Buddha' or 'Muhammad'. There is far more objective evidence that the two latter individuals actually did exist.

Language In Thought And Action really influenced your thinking. Its where you learned about words as symbols as well as the whole SOURCE vs CONTENT argument.
jar writes:

It's back towards some basics we've discussed many times.

Don't confuse the map for the territory. Don't confuse the symbol for the reality.

This exchange is critical to the topic.

On the belief side symbols are tossed out and accepted as the reality BUT, and it is a major but, none of the people on the belief side take the next step and ask 'When you use the symbol Jesus, what do you mean?"

When someone on the belief side says they are in communion with God no one raises their hand and asks "What do you mean?"

Belief equals everyone nodding their heads collectively.

The scientific method equals asking "Say what?"

Say what?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 04-05-2021 4:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 04-06-2021 10:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 60 of 127 (885349)
04-06-2021 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
04-06-2021 9:33 AM


Re: the topic
Phat writes:

You seem to think Christianity is about what we do.(CONTENT of character) and that SOURCE(Creator of all seen and unseen) is irrelevant.

There you go retreating yet again to just word salad and fantasy. What the hell does "CONTENT of character" even mean or other than your total fantasy involving "SOURCE(Creator of all seen and unseen) " which is totally refuted by all the evidence relevant?

There is absolute irrefutable evidence that the Bible is not something created by some single or supernatural SOURCE but rather by an unknown number of very simple humans. It's called "Scripture" and can be read by almost anyone except Biblical Christians it seems.

But you also simply refused or are unable to address what I posted about symbolism.

The pattern continues.


My Website: My Website

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