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Author Topic:   Belief Versus The Scientific Method
jar
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Posts: 33412
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 106 of 127 (885679)
04-22-2021 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
04-22-2021 9:07 AM


Basics Phat, basics
Phat writes:

To start with, I will first move that this God should be known also as Jesus. Any objections?

There are three basic Masoretic religions; Judaism, Christianity & Islam. All three claim to worship the same God, and all three base their beliefs on the same masoretic texts. In all three there is a character Jesus but in only one of the three is Jesus considered divine. And in the one religion where Jesus is considered divine I cannot get anyone to explain how it is possible for Jesus to be divine and the belief to be monotheistic.

In fact by the very symbols you have posted Jesus by definition in Christianity is God but is NOT God the Father or God the Holy Ghost. So Christianity is a Monotheistic religion with three separate individual Gods; the third of which was only created several hundred years after Jesus died.

If you want to claim to be a Christian at least admit what basic Christian doctrine actually says.

And if you are honest, laugh at how silly it all really is.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 9:07 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2021 6:06 PM jar has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5988
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 107 of 127 (885683)
04-22-2021 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
04-22-2021 2:40 PM


Re: Basics Phat, basics
And in the one religion where Jesus is considered divine I cannot get anyone to explain how it is possible for Jesus to be divine and the belief to be monotheistic.

Here you go, jar, try this.

Father, the infinite strawberry. Son, the strawberry purée. The holy spirit, strawberry jam.

In the beginning there was god the strawberry. When man was created god the strawberry cooked himself up into a jam that humans would know the spirit of strawberry.

Things were a bit rough as god the jam spread himself around the garden a bit but a few places like squash, cantaloupe and ginger, didn’t like the taste so god the strawberry went over and stomped hard on Sodom, Canaan, Gomorrah, and a few other places. At one point he was so pissed that god the strawberry flooded the whole damn garden. Had to replant and start again.

That didn’t seem to help much with all the other veggies in the garden so god the strawberry decided to take a big handful of himself, smear in some jam and set out to jawbone the rest of the garden into submission. Didn’t work. What got back was a loose purée. And god the strawberry had to take the purée back into himself because … well … it was him.

So there you have it. One (mono) strawberry with three forms. Strawberry the Father, Jam the Spirit and what was left of god when humans got done with him, the purée.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 04-22-2021 2:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 04-22-2021 6:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33412
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 108 of 127 (885685)
04-22-2021 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by AZPaul3
04-22-2021 6:06 PM


Re: Basics Phat, basics
Cute except that the Christian Dogma categorically denies that what is seen are three different essences or attributes but rather separate and unique individuals that are both the same and not the same.

What you describe is called Modalism.

BUT, it does keep the apologists well paid.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2021 6:06 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2021 7:11 PM jar has not yet responded
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5988
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 109 of 127 (885687)
04-22-2021 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
04-22-2021 6:19 PM


Re: Basics Phat, basics
Oh, jar, I was hoping you would more than smile. A guffaw would have been good. Especially on the purée parts. I'll try harder next time.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 04-22-2021 6:19 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 110 of 127 (885690)
04-22-2021 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
04-22-2021 6:19 PM


Re: Basics Phat, basics
I first heard this one in the 1990 Eric Idle/Robbie Coltrane comedy, Nuns on the Run, in which two small-time crooks hid out by posing as nuns in a Catholic school.

One, the non-Catholic, had to teach the theology class so the other, who had a Catholic background, told him about the Mystery of the Shamrock which demonstrates how the Trinity is actually One. In a later scene, that fake nun's line was "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Shamrock."

Many years later, I was surprised to hear that that Shamrock lesson was real and apparently had been used by Saint Patrick himself!


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 Message 108 by jar, posted 04-22-2021 6:19 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 111 of 127 (885693)
04-22-2021 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by AZPaul3
04-22-2021 7:11 PM


Analogies and Anthologies
I suppose I shouldn't get mad at you or expect anything less than humor. You don't believe in GOD in any form except perhaps science and human wisdom and our awe over what WE have created.

My analogy was always the Sun, the Light and the Heat.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 04-22-2021 7:11 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:21 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 112 of 127 (885694)
04-22-2021 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
04-22-2021 11:46 AM


Re: Yet Another Attempt To Further reframe my arguments
ringo writes:

If I ask YOU whether you have thought about something, it's because you've said something that indicates you haven't thought about it. For example, I have to wonder if you have really thought about the difference between your God and other Gods because you can never give a valid example of the difference.

I'll try though you likely will reject my answer according to your framework of what the rules are. Think about it though. If your rules were accepted as valid, NOBODY could be a believer. I submit that critically thinking materialists have no monopoly on societal rules nor need I accept their claim to default thinking.

Phat,earlier writes:

The God I create exists even if I never existed.


Let me elaborate. You guys claim that I and everybody else "create" their own Gods. Thus my response is tongue-in-cheek. God created me and everything and everyone else long before I and my species were even evolved enough to imagine/create Him. Jar always said that IF GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of whether anyone believes it, has experienced it or not. He also said that IF GOD did not exist, nothing we could create, argue or believe would bring GOD into existence. I have adopted the objective belief that GOD exists. I ignore the 2nd part of jars construct due to the fact that I dont create my own reality. I merely experience it.

ringo writes:

You can't just claim that Long John Silver really did have only one leg even if Robert Louis Stevenson never existed.

True...only because I never wrote Treasure Island. What puzzles me is why you reject the research and arguments of the apologists and accept the mythicists and other secular sholars with an axe to grind against the Jesus. Methinks you never got zapped for whatever reason. You simply tried to fit in.

ringo, defending the idea of relativism and subjectivity for ALL Gods writes:

Of course we can, because you can't show any difference between your made-up god and any other made-up god.

And you cant show why *we* only imagine God and never actually experienced an encounter with Him.
ringo,defending his point about "empty beliefs" writes:

They don't "become" empty. They start out empty and without evidence they stay empty.

If so, how is it that you once were a believer...if in fact you only ha empty beliefs to work with? Surely you are not gullible...

ringo writes:

ALL evidence is objective. When will you learn that? I've told you many times.

And you are wrong. If all evidence were objective, all people would have no choice but to question and doubt their beliefs. Thus, you have no evidence.(nor do I) The mythicists are also wrong.(In my opinion...they too grasp t straws regarding verifiable evidence)

ringo writes:

But we shouldn't "rely" on them. (unevidenced beliefs)They're not reliable.


Phat writes:

Why not?


ringo writes:

Because they disagree with other unevidenced beliefs.

And as I have tried to convince you time and time agin, all "Gods(gods) are NOT equal. If we had numerous believers in Big Foot and the Spaghetti Monster running around behaving like Biblical Christians, you may have a valid argument. But we don't. Its like placebos and actual medicine.
Phat writes:

To start with, I will first move that this God should be known also as Jesus. Any objections?


ringo writes:

Of course I have objections. You might as well say that this God should be known also as Holden Caulfield. It's nonsensical.

Your argument favoring relativism falls flat for the same reasons. Jesus is not a minor bit player on the level of (insert alternative here). Argue it if you insist. Its a weak argument, however. I invoke the appeal to popularity, among other things.
And why would anybody prefer dishonesty?
Who is being dishonest? And why?
Phat writes:

There is in my opinion quite a bit of evidence...

ringo writes:

Very little evidence. And remember that you reject what the Bible says about Jesus.

That rabbit trail is as usual distracting this argument. What I do and do not do is of little importance, as is what you do and do not do. You use the fact that you are not a Christian to get off the hook. I use the excuse that no bunch of atheists is gonna define for me what I *should* do. I will be judged accordingly.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 04-22-2021 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 04-23-2021 12:23 PM Phat has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 113 of 127 (885695)
04-22-2021 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
04-22-2021 10:12 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
My analogy was always the Sun, the Light and the Heat.

Ironic, since it was Sun God worship that had transformed early Christianity into what it is today. Complete with move the Day of Worship form the actual Sabbath (Saturday, AKA sábado) to The Sun's Day, Sunday.

Just for fun and nostalgia (I learned a lot from these films in elementary school), meet Our Mister Sun:

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed link


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 10:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 10:23 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 114 of 127 (885696)
04-22-2021 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by dwise1
04-22-2021 10:21 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
I remember this one! It brings back memories of an innocent time. And yet it is true in that Mr.Sun is quite crucial to our existence.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:21 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:28 PM Phat has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 115 of 127 (885697)
04-22-2021 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
04-22-2021 10:23 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
"Thinking started spreading like the measles."

Christianity is not so much about Jesus as it is about a Sun God.

 
ABE:

One of the problems of having learned so much science so early in my life is that I cannot understand how anyone could so severely misunderstand it.

For example, creationist Kent Hovind has his solar-mass-loss claim which I treat here. But various things that he has said in the past makes it appear that he does not understand how the sun works, even to the point thinking that it burns through combustion, a special kind of combustion in which mass ceases to exist (and this from a self-avowed expert in science!). Every creationist I've asked about their views of how the sun actually "burns its fuel" have just gotten all kinds of huffy and left.

Part of that is them just being creationists (ie, looking for any excuse at all to run away from any actual discussion), but seriously, how does a scientific illiterate thing that the sun burns?

Edited by dwise1, : ABE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 10:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 10:40 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 116 of 127 (885698)
04-22-2021 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by dwise1
04-22-2021 10:28 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
I agree to an extent and disagree in totality.

The Sun represents the SOURCE...93 million miles away.
The Light represents what the Nicene Creed says "and was made man."
For an omnipotent God to have a son does not challenge monotheism at all.

I submit that people simply didn't and don't understand. Allah had no son. Thus all three Abrahamic religions are not totally alike.

The Heat represents the Holy Spirit...the Spirit of Creativity...the spark that has kept this planet alive for a purpose not of human origin.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 10:28 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:11 PM Phat has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 117 of 127 (885699)
04-22-2021 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
04-22-2021 10:40 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
Allah had no son.

Sorry, but that is a false etymology. You cannot equate "Sun" with "son" in any language except for English. If it doesn't work in the original languages, then it is not valid.

For example, a local creationist found "great wisdom" in a child's response to a theologian's musing that Jesus had a twin brother. She said, "The Bible says she was with child, not with children.

First, the English never ever uses the expression of being "with children".

Second, that is not even what the Bible says! In the original Greek, it says that she "had in belly", meaning that she was pregnant. Absolutely no mention of children let alone any hint of how many children she was carrying.

If you want to analyze the exact wording, then you need to go back to the original language.

 
Another false folk Christian etymology is "atonement" which they misinterpret as "at-one-ment". Yet again, using English to interpret a non-English word and concept, so complete BS.

 
BTW, Jesus has a very prominent role in Islam.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 10:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 11:32 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 118 of 127 (885700)
04-22-2021 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by dwise1
04-22-2021 11:11 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
Im not going to argue any of your points except to say that my intention was not to conflate Son and Sun. They just sound alike(and I was referring to the Trinity.) The rest of your points are noted and are valid.

My point is that even if Sun worship was intermingled with Christianity, The Jews were among the first people to have a God with no discernible image.

Deut 4:15 NIV writes:

You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Jesus never pointed towards Himself as the object of worship. He always pointed towards His Father. I suppose some choose to argue that Jesus was as human as you or I, but I maintain that He and He alone understood the Creator of all seen and unseen and saw GOD as His Father.

And on a related note, speaking of Dr.Frank Baxter and my 6th grade memories, I present another one of my favorites from that time!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added Hemo The Magnificent!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:11 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 120 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2021 11:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 119 of 127 (885701)
04-22-2021 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Phat
04-22-2021 11:32 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
... my intention was not to conflate Son and Sun. They just sound alike ...

Hence my point. Far too many believers commit such conflations and arrive at utterly false conclusions.

To quote a fundamentalist Christian co-worker (but still a very good guy), "That's just plain wrong!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 11:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 120 of 127 (885702)
04-22-2021 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Phat
04-22-2021 11:32 PM


Re: Analogies and Anthologies
And the one on cosmic rays. I learned so much from those Dr. Baxter films. Though it wasn't until "Green Acres" about a decade later that I ever learned who Eddie Albert was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 04-22-2021 11:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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