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Author Topic:   Blood in dino bones
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1222 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 106 of 138 (455275)
02-11-2008 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 6:25 PM


quote:
They could always run carbon 14 tests, but that's unlikely going to happen if they stick to the millions year old.

Doing carbon 14 on rock is a fools errand--you would get no meaningful answers. (And yes, I am familiar with the RATE project.)

quote:
I don't see why extant or not-that-old extinct dinosaurs would be a problem for evolutionists. As a matter of fact many cultures from the past tell stories about dragons (dinosaur-like creatures).
...
I think this question will be resolved if we find dragon (dinosaurs) skull/skeletons in medieval sites or ancient sites where people lived.

If you want to know about things found in medieval or other ancient sites, all you have to do is ask an archaeologist. We work with these time periods all the time. Don't you think it would be worth a Nobel Prize if we could document a dragon! (They don't have such a Nobel Prize for archaeology but they would create one for such a find!)

But with tens of thousands of archaeologists all over the world, along with geologists, sedimentologists, prospectors, landscapers, construction workers, gardeners and all the rest -- no such dragons have ever been found. There are tons of mammoths and mastodons, along with other now-extinct critters, but no dragons. I think the reason is that dragons are entirely mythical.

quote:
Why would they make up an imaginary animal?

Gee, let me think:


Click to enlarge


Click to enlarge

(Google "imaginary animal" and see how many thousands of critters you get.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 6:25 PM DogToDolphin has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 138 (455280)
02-11-2008 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Coyote
02-11-2008 7:07 PM


no offense, but you could have come up with some way cooler imaginary animals ;)

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DogToDolphin
Member (Idle past 4992 days)
Posts: 40
From: Avignon, France
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 108 of 138 (455281)
02-11-2008 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Coyote
02-11-2008 7:07 PM


Hmmm,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
What about the almost universal depiction of dragon (dinosaur)-like creatures around the globe?
You can check Inca, Turkish, Chinese, Indonesian, Russian, European artifacts, and they will show you a dragon-like (dinosaur if you prefer, but that term didn't exist back then) on their potteries, in their stories, Zodiac symbols (why would there be 11 common animals + 1 "mythical" one)?

What is so mythical about dragons?
Centaurs are definitely mythical since no one has ever found a Centaur skeleton afaik?
It's not the case of Dragons/Dinosaurs, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Coyote, posted 02-11-2008 7:07 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Coyote, posted 02-11-2008 7:37 PM DogToDolphin has responded
 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-11-2008 7:42 PM DogToDolphin has responded
 Message 118 by RAZD, posted 02-11-2008 8:04 PM DogToDolphin has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 109 of 138 (455284)
02-11-2008 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 6:25 PM


I don't see why extant or not-that-old extinct dinosaurs would be a problem for evolutionists.

They aren't.

So, you ask, why do I argue against the loons who pretend that (non-avian) dinosaurs are still roaming the earth?

There are two reasons.

The first is that I am not just opposed to halfwitted lies that oppose the theory of evolution --- I am opposed to all halfwitted lies. If I see someone telling a halfwitted lie, I respond by telling him the truth, whether or not it has anything to do with evolution.

The second reason is that evolution and creationism are in opposition, so every time I expose a creationist liar as a liar, I gain a rhetorical advantage. If his lie is irrelevant to the debate, then I have still exposed the creationist as a liar. If, as in this case, his lie has no relation to the debate, then I score twice, because I can then expose him as being, not just a liar, but a stupid liar, since he expended his credibility on telling a lie that doesn't actually help his cause.

And this is how I do treat the living-dinosaur people. Not only are they lying, but they are dumb enough to believe that their stupid lies support their cause. The fact that their lies wouldn't support their cause even if those lies were true does not deprive me of the rhetorical advantage of being able to point out that creationists are stupid liars. On the contrary, the fact that their lie is irrelevant proves that their lie is stupid.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 1222 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 110 of 138 (455285)
02-11-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 7:25 PM


quote:
What about the almost universal depiction of dragon (dinosaur)-like creatures around the globe?
You can check Inca, Turkish, Chinese, Indonesian, Russian, European artifacts, and they will show you a dragon-like (dinosaur if you prefer, but that term didn't exist back then) on their potteries, in their stories, Zodiac symbols (why would there be 11 common animals + 1 "mythical" one)?

What is so mythical about dragons?
Centaurs are definitely mythical since no one has ever found a Centaur skeleton afaik?
It's not the case of Dragons/Dinosaurs, right?


Dragons are mythical. Dinosaurs are real, and went out of fashion about 65 million years ago. The evidence is clear on this.

But if you disagree, get your pick and shovel and do some research! But remember, if you want your evidence to pass scientific scrutiny, you might want to follow the scientific method. And your evidence will have to be clear and convincing. Drawings on old pots won't cut it if you can't produce bones or some other clear evidence.

It is like hunting for bigfoot. Bring back a skeleton or a major piece of one, and all of those decades of sightings and photographs will be more acceptable as evidence. Without a skeleton you have just another imaginary creature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 7:25 PM DogToDolphin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 7:46 PM Coyote has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 111 of 138 (455288)
02-11-2008 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 7:25 PM


What about the almost universal depiction of dragon (dinosaur)-like creatures around the globe?

Er ... given that it doesn't exist, what about it?

It's not the case of Dragons/Dinosaurs, right?

You know, writing the words "Dragons/Dinosaurs" doesn't magically turn dragons into dinosaurs any more than writing "Horses/Unicorns" magically turns horses into unicorns.

The / character does not have magical properties.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 7:25 PM DogToDolphin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 7:47 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
DogToDolphin
Member (Idle past 4992 days)
Posts: 40
From: Avignon, France
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 112 of 138 (455289)
02-11-2008 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Coyote
02-11-2008 7:37 PM


Well, my question was how come ancient cultures depicted dinosaurs-like creatures? If indeed they had not seen any and it was all a myth.

Isn't it something worth looking into, even if you are not interested in it. I don't ask you to be interested in the topic if you don't want to.

Edited by DogToDolphin, : syntax


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DogToDolphin
Member (Idle past 4992 days)
Posts: 40
From: Avignon, France
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 113 of 138 (455290)
02-11-2008 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dr Adequate
02-11-2008 7:42 PM


I wrote Dragon/Dinosaurs since the word Dinosaurs didn't exist before the 19th century.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-11-2008 7:42 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 114 of 138 (455291)
02-11-2008 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 6:25 PM


Where was this dinosaur bone found? At the surface or deep down in the soil?

According to the report you quoted, it is near the bottom of an exposed cliff face.

So I am thinking that this dinosaur might not be as old as 70millions years, if it's near the surface (even a bone is sticking out the surface).

Here's a word for you. E-ro-sion.

They could always run carbon 14 tests, but that's unlikely going to happen if they stick to the millions year old.

I guess that you think that you know what you mean when you say this, but for the benefit of those of us who don't live in your fantasy world, could you please expand on this statement?

Also China has a dragon as one of its national symbol. Why does it look so much like dinosaurs if indeed no one had seen them in the past.

Here is a picture of a Chinese dragon.

Please tell us which dinosaur you believe that it "looks so much like"?

I think this question will be resolved if we find dragon (dinosaurs) skull/skeletons in medieval sites or ancient sites where people lived.

The fact that we have never, ever, found such a skeleton surely also has some bearing on the question.

You might as well say that the question of whether pigs have wings "will be resolved if we find winged pigs". Well, yes it would. But the fact that we have never found any winged pigs is surely also relevant, and helps us to resolve this question.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 6:25 PM DogToDolphin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 8:17 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1222 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 115 of 138 (455293)
02-11-2008 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 7:46 PM


quote:
Well, my question was how come ancient cultures depicted dinosaurs-like creatures? If indeed they had not seen any and it was all a myth.

Isn't something worth looking into, even if you are not interested in it. I don't ask you to be interested in the topic if you don't want to.



Look into it how?

Archaeology is our single best tool for exploring the past. Archaeology is practiced in most countries of the world and if there was evidence of "dragons" we would have found it by now. The depictions on pots and other old drawings show the most unlikely of critters--as do movies, TV, supermarket tabloid covers, comic books and the like. Means nothing.

Our colleagues the paleontologists find tons of dinosaurs, but no dragons. The problem is, those dinosaurs are all 65 million years old or older.

The evidence for a young earth, recent dragons, and a global flood about 4350 years ago is just not there. You are grasping at straws.


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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 3966
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 116 of 138 (455295)
02-11-2008 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 7:46 PM


Well, my question was how come ancient cultures depicted dinosaurs-like creatures? If indeed they had not seen any and it was all a myth.

Isn't something worth looking into, even if you are not interested in it. I don't ask you to be interested in the topic if you don't want to.

You know, ancient people can dig up old bones, too. What do you think they'll come up with when they see a T-Rex skull? Maybe make up a fantastical myth to explain it, like everything else they didn't understand about the world?

Aside from that, never having seen anything like Unicorns, Gryphons, or any other mythological creatures never stopped ancient cultures from imagining them. Honestly, how hard is it to come up with a giant freaking lizard?

If the evidence shows that humans and dinosaurs never coexisted, and there is an incredibly easy explanation for "dragon" wall paintings because mythological creatures are present in nearly every culture, reality is fairly obvious.


When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 7:46 PM DogToDolphin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by DogToDolphin, posted 02-11-2008 8:25 PM Rahvin has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 117 of 138 (455297)
02-11-2008 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 7:47 PM


I wrote Dragon/Dinosaurs since the word Dinosaurs didn't exist before the 19th century.

What of it? The word "invetebrate" didn't exist until the 18th century, but that would not excuse someone who wrote "Dragon/Invertebrate" as though they were two different terms for the same thing.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 118 of 138 (455299)
02-11-2008 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by DogToDolphin
02-11-2008 7:25 PM


Welcome to the fray, DogToDolphin.

What about the almost universal depiction of dragon (dinosaur)-like creatures around the globe?

And the fact that there are substantial differences in the depictions from various cultures on traits, behaviors and abilities.

You can check Inca, Turkish, Chinese, Indonesian, Russian, European artifacts, and they will show you a dragon-like (dinosaur if you prefer, but that term didn't exist back then) on their potteries ...

Some of which are fakes, frauds, like Piltdown etc.

It's not the case of Dragons/Dinosaurs, right?

You might be interested in The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times. (Hardcover) --

quote:
Since fossils have presumably existed for millions of years, why don't we see much paleontological thought from ancient writers? Classics scholar Adrienne Mayor suggests that we can, in fact, learn much about the Greek and Roman attitudes toward fossils if we turn to a surprising source of data and theory: their myths. In The First Fossil Hunters, she explores likely connections between the rich fossil beds around the Mediterranean and tales of griffins and giants originating in the classical world. Striking similarities exist between the Protoceratops skeletons of the Gobi Desert and the legends of the gold-hoarding griffin told by nomadic people of the region, and the fossilized remains of giant Miocene mammals could be taken for the heroes and monsters of earlier times. Mayor makes her case well, but, as with all interpretive science, the arguments are inconclusive. Still, her novel reading of ancient myth--and her critique of the modern scientific mythology that seeks to explain the lack of classical paleontological thinking--is compelling and thought-provoking.

Then you can ask yourself which is more likely - that dragons existed, or that early people came upon the fossil skeletons of dinosaurs and made up myths to explain them.

quote:

Click to enlarge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

quote:

Click to enlarge

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
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DogToDolphin
Member (Idle past 4992 days)
Posts: 40
From: Avignon, France
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 119 of 138 (455303)
02-11-2008 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Dr Adequate
02-11-2008 7:54 PM


quote:
According to the report you quoted, it is near the bottom of an exposed cliff face.

I agree with you on that one.

quote:
who don't live in your fantasy world

Why are you saying I live in a Fantasy world?

What about Dracorex hogwartsia?
http://www.hmnh.org/archives/2006/05/22/dragon-people-dear-readers/

But then again, I am not saying with dogmatism that they did exist, but the doubt remains as to the truth of all those legends.


This message is a reply to:
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DogToDolphin
Member (Idle past 4992 days)
Posts: 40
From: Avignon, France
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 120 of 138 (455305)
02-11-2008 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rahvin
02-11-2008 7:58 PM


quote:
You know, ancient people can dig up old bones, too. What do you think they'll come up with when they see a T-Rex skull? Maybe make up a fantastical myth to explain it, like everything else they didn't understand about the world?

That's a plausible explanation.

Unicorns are horses with a horn, Griffins seem to be a mosaic of a kind of eagle and a lion, but doesn't seem to be a worldwide myth, compared to the dragon or dinosaurs like creatures.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rahvin, posted 02-11-2008 7:58 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Rahvin, posted 02-11-2008 8:42 PM DogToDolphin has responded
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