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Author Topic:   An Ether-Based Creation Model
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 241 of 305 (887420)
08-02-2021 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by AZPaul3
08-01-2021 6:53 AM


Re: Get Real.
Hi Paul,

AZPaul3 writes:

Wasn't very eternal if it ended.

I should have clarified eternal in the past until the darkness that is found at Genesis 1:2. Which when the next light period began was declared to be day one.

From that time to the present we have had light periods following dark periods. One day that will change and there will only be a light period that will last eternally into the future.

The start of days as we call them was for the benefit of humans.

Are you saying everything and I mean everything had a beginning to exist?

Even existence itself.

AZPaul3 writes:

Actually, there is an energy force that is blowing this universe apart

Then what is the big deal about dark matter and dark energy holding the universe together?

AZPaul3 writes:

What does it take to build a universe like ours? Nobody knows, ICANT. Especially not you or any of your religious colleagues.

It takes energy and lots of it.

AZPaul3 writes:

The cosmic egg idea is an offshoot from Georges LemaƮtre

Hawkings instanton and Guth's zero energy ideas are nothing but a sort of cosmic egg.

God Bless


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by AZPaul3, posted 08-01-2021 6:53 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2021 3:39 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 242 of 305 (887421)
08-03-2021 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
08-01-2021 10:17 PM


Re: Get Real.
Hi ringo

ringo
ICANT writes:

The Universe required a beginning to exist just like you did.


That's an unsupported assertion.

If the universe did not have a beginning to exist, has it existed eternally in the past?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 08-01-2021 10:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 08-03-2021 12:05 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 243 of 305 (887422)
08-03-2021 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by AZPaul3
08-01-2021 7:08 AM


Re: Get Real.
Hi Paul,

AZPaul writes:

When you drive to the store do you say the space, the road, between your car and the store is contracting?

No.

Because the dirt of the earth is not disappearing between the start point of my car and the store.

For the two Galaxies to get closer together the space has to shrink.

AZPaul writes:

Our local group is gravitationally bound. That overrides the force of the expansion.

So the space between the two is getting smaller. Which the last time I checked means contracting.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by AZPaul3, posted 08-01-2021 7:08 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2021 3:57 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 244 of 305 (887423)
08-03-2021 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by ICANT
08-02-2021 11:41 PM


Re: Get Real.
Are you saying everything and I mean everything had a beginning to exist?

Even existence itself.

Sounds reasonable, but lacking evidence, we can't say this is so.

AZPaul3 writes:

Actually, there is an energy force that is blowing this universe apart

Then what is the big deal about dark matter and dark energy holding the universe together?

The big deal, Reverend, is you have your concepts wrong. Can't argue about what each is doing if you don't understand what each is really doing.

Dark energy (appears to be what) is causing the expansion of spacetime to accelerate and may, eventually, tearing this universe appart. Dark energy is what is causing those far away galaxies to speed away from us

Dark matter (its gravitational effects) is what is holding the galaxies together and it is the force that will cause all 100+- galaxies of our local group to merge into one in the next hundred billion years or so regardless of the expansion.

AZPaul3 writes:

What does it take to build a universe like ours? Nobody knows, ICANT. Especially not you or any of your religious colleagues.

It takes energy and lots of it.

Indeed to takes more than you and I can muster together these days, my old friend.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ICANT, posted 08-02-2021 11:41 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 1:02 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 245 of 305 (887424)
08-03-2021 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ICANT
08-03-2021 12:20 AM


Re: Get Real.
For the two Galaxies to get closer together the space has to shrink.

Bad choice of words there ICANT. Semantics are important.

The spacetime fabric is not shrinking. The spacetime does not disappear between galaxies anymore than the road disappears as you drive over it. That road, that spacetime you've just been through, didn't disappear from the universe but is now behind you.

You may want to argue, rather pedantically, that "travelled road" is "disappeared road" but that semantic usage only works if one is deliberately trying to obfuscate the discussion.

So the space between the two is getting smaller. Which the last time I checked means contracting.

Then you need to check again. And, please, get it right this time.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2021 12:20 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 246 of 305 (887435)
08-03-2021 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by ICANT
08-03-2021 12:00 AM


Re: Get Real.
ICANT writes:

If the universe did not have a beginning to exist, has it existed eternally in the past?


As you have been told, we don't know. You shouldn't pretend that you do.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2021 12:00 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2021 11:29 PM ringo has responded
 Message 249 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 12:13 AM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 247 of 305 (887443)
08-03-2021 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
08-03-2021 12:05 PM


Re: Get Real.
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

we don't know.

I have been told, 'we don't know' when I ask about where the universe came from.

I know there are several people who have tried to come up with ways to get around the universe having a beginning to exist problem.

The bounce hypothesis comes to mind as well as the string hypothesis.

But there is no way around the universe having a beginning to exist in and from non existence or being eternal.

Einstein believed in a static universe which is an eternal existing universe until it was discovered to be expanding. Which means it had to have a beginning to exist.

So believing the universe has always existed in some form just not the form we see today puts me in pretty good company.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 08-03-2021 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-03-2021 11:49 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 262 by ringo, posted 08-04-2021 3:17 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 627
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 248 of 305 (887444)
08-03-2021 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ICANT
08-03-2021 11:29 PM


Re: Get Real.
Draw a circle. Where does it begin (and end)? Or, closer to our current understanding of the universe, draw a hyperbola - where does it begin and end? What exists before its beginning? Yes, there is paper before its apex, but what if the hyperbola is the only thing that exists? Kind of hard to wrap our heads around thinking of that as a description of the universe through time, but no more so than trying to think of some long stringy molecules defining who and what we are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2021 11:29 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 12:35 AM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 249 of 305 (887445)
08-04-2021 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
08-03-2021 12:05 PM


Re: Get Real.
Hi Paul,

I don't know how this come up as a answer to ringo when it was an answer to AZPaul3. Added by edit.

AZPaul3 writes:

You may want to argue, rather pedantically, that "travelled road" is "disappeared road"

Why would I want to make such a stupid argument.

When I go to the store I travel over the road, I can look in my rear view mirror and see the road is still there behind me in the same place when I traveled over it.

If the space between the Milky Way and Andromeda is not shrinking, (contracting) explain to me how it covers the 100,000 light years of distance to get behind the Milky Way and the 220,000 light years distance to get behind Andromeda like the road does in your example.

If I remember correctly there is no such thing as empty space. A vacuum would be the only thing that is said to be empty. But since it is said that things pop into existence in a vacuum, So a vacuum is not empty If you got everything out of it, it would not exist.

ringo writes:

pretend that you do.

I am not pretending. I examine the evidence and come to the conclusion the universe has always existed in some form just not in the form we see it today.

Evidence: Energy can not be created.

Energy can be converted into matter which is what we see in the universe.

God Bless

Edited by ICANT, : Add comment about who I was answering.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 08-03-2021 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2021 5:35 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 261 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-04-2021 1:20 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 08-04-2021 3:19 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 250 of 305 (887446)
08-04-2021 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by AnswersInGenitals
08-03-2021 11:49 PM


Re: Get Real.
Hi Answers,

AnswersInGenitals writes:

Draw a circle. Where does it begin (and end)?

The circle begins at the point you place the pencil on the blank sheet of paper and begin to draw the circle. It ends when the pencil reaches the point you began to draw the circle.

Now if you place a blank sheet of paper on a table and a pencil beside of it how long will it take for a circle to appear on the blank sheet of paper.

The circle does not exist and will not exist until some force moves that pencil to the paper and draws a circle on it.

If there was only non existence you would only ever have non existence.
There has to be existence for anything to exist.

That is the reason I believe the universe has always existed in some form just not the form we see it in today.

I don't see why anyone here has a problem with that statement.

Every since it was discovered that the universe was expanding scientist have been trying to prove that the universe did not have to have a beginning to exist.

That is what I believe so what is the problem?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 08-03-2021 11:49 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Percy, posted 08-04-2021 11:17 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 251 of 305 (887447)
08-04-2021 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by AZPaul3
08-03-2021 3:39 AM


Re: Get Real.
Hi Paul

AZPaul3 writes:

he big deal, Reverend, is you have your concepts wrong. Can't argue about what each is doing if you don't understand what each is really doing.

Dark energy (appears to be what) is causing the expansion of spacetime to accelerate and may, eventually, tearing this universe appart. Dark energy is what is causing those far away galaxies to speed away from us

Dark matter (its gravitational effects) is what is holding the galaxies together and it is the force that will cause all 100+- galaxies of our local group to merge into one in the next hundred billion years or so regardless of the expansion.

I understand there is a power that is streaching out the universe.
I understand there is a power causing the streaching to speed up.
I understand there is a power that even though things are streaching and speeding up that is holding the universe together.

We just have different names for that power. But you call that power whatever you want to call it.

AXPaul3 writes:

Indeed to takes more than you and I can muster together these days, my old friend.

What used to take me 30 minutes to complete now takes about 3 to 4 hours due to all the rest periods I have to take while doing the job.

I am not sure the universe is not getting to the same point in it's existence.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by AZPaul3, posted 08-03-2021 3:39 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2021 8:22 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 259 by Percy, posted 08-04-2021 11:38 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 252 of 305 (887448)
08-04-2021 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by ICANT
08-04-2021 12:13 AM


Re: Get Real.
Why would I want to make such a stupid argument.

I hope you're not, but it is what you said.

When I go to the store I travel over the road, I can look in my rear view mirror and see the road is still there behind me in the same place when I traveled over it.

And this differs from the space road travelled by Milky Way and Andromeda how?

The space that Milky Way is travelling through ends up behind us. So what? It hasn't disappeared from the universe.

If the space between the Milky Way and Andromeda is not shrinking, (contracting) explain to me how it covers the 100,000 light years of distance to get behind the Milky Way and the 220,000 light years distance to get behind Andromeda like the road does in your example.

?? explain to me how it (space ?) covers the 100,000 light years of distance to get behind the Milky Way... ??

??... and the 220,000 light years distance to get behind Andromeda like the road does in your example.

What are you asking?

What is 100,000 ly distance "behind" the Milky Way?

What is 220,000 light years "behind" Andromeda?

What does this have to do with the two galaxies being on a road 2.5 million ly apart and headed toward a collision? Doesn't matter what's behind them.

And this "how it (I assume your "it" is space) covers the 100,000 light years of distance to get behind the Milky Way ..."

"...get behind the Milky Way"? What got behind the Milky Way?

What are you talking about?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 12:13 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 10:53 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 253 of 305 (887450)
08-04-2021 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by ICANT
08-04-2021 1:02 AM


Re: Get Real.
One other pet peeve.

We just have different names for that power. But you call that power whatever you want to call it.

We have accepted acknowledged names for those powers. If you care to communicate with other human beings you will use the established names. You don't get to make up your own names when the discipline has already established them.

It is because of these social mores that I call you 'reverend' instead of 'pedophile'.

Especially in a science forum, use the established terminology.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 1:02 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 11:03 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 254 of 305 (887453)
08-04-2021 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by AZPaul3
08-04-2021 5:35 AM


Re: Get Real.
Hi Paul

AZPaul3 writes:

What are you talking about?

Your example of my trip to the store.

As I drive towards the store I can look behind me and the road I just traveled is right there behind me.

But with either of the galaxies the galaxies are right behind me not the space that was in front of me.

So where did the space go?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2021 5:35 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2021 11:33 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 255 of 305 (887455)
08-04-2021 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by AZPaul3
08-04-2021 8:22 AM


Re: Get Real.
Hi Paul

AZPaul3 writes:

We have accepted acknowledged names for those powers. If you care to communicate with other human beings you will use the established names. You don't get to make up your own names when the discipline has already established them.

The name I have for the power or energy has been around a lot longer than the names science has made up to call the source of the power/energy.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2021 8:22 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2021 11:17 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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