Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9045 total)
122 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones*, PaulK, Tangle (4 members, 118 visitors)
Newest Member: maria
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 887,139 Year: 4,785/14,102 Month: 383/707 Week: 114/197 Day: 3/55 Hour: 3/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   An Ether-Based Creation Model
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 256 of 305 (887456)
08-04-2021 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by ICANT
08-04-2021 12:35 AM


Re: Get Real.
ICANT writes:

The circle begins at the point you place the pencil on the blank sheet of paper and begin to draw the circle. It ends when the pencil reaches the point you began to draw the circle.

That's only one of many ways to create a circle. Another is to drop a round pebble on sand, creating a circle all at once. A circle is actually a conceptual object consisting of the set of points in a plain equidistant from a single point. Which point is the first one?

That is the reason I believe the universe has always existed in some form just not the form we see it in today.

I don't see why anyone here has a problem with that statement.

The problem is that you have insufficient evidence and only armchair reasoning for your conclusions.

Ever since it was discovered that the universe was expanding scientist have been trying to prove that the universe did not have to have a beginning to exist.

Why do you think cosmologists care which way the evidence leads? The big problem in cosmology regarding the origin of the universe is the lack of sufficient evidence to reach firm conclusions at this time. There *is* a wide range of opinion about what avenues are most promising to explore.

That is what I believe so what is the problem?

So long as you understand there's insufficient evidence for what you believe, there's no problem.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 12:35 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 257 of 305 (887457)
08-04-2021 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by ICANT
08-04-2021 11:03 AM


Re: Get Real.
The name I have for the power or energy has been around a lot longer than the names science has made up to call the source of the power/energy.

Doesn't matter what ancient voodoo mystics used to call anything. For modern discourse, especially in the sciences, terminology is specific for a reason. Understanding.

These are the only motive powers (forces) operating on the matter/energy of this universe that we know exist:

Electromagnetism
Weak nuclear force
Strong nuclear force
Gravity (includes dark matter)
H0 (spatial expansion, Hubble constant).

Calling these forces anything other than by their known terms is obfuscation of the discussion.

Strike out on your own path if you do not want to be understood.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 11:03 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 258 of 305 (887458)
08-04-2021 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by ICANT
08-04-2021 10:53 AM


Re: Get Real.
s I drive towards the store I can look behind me and the road I just traveled is right there behind me.

But with either of the galaxies the galaxies are right behind me not the space that was in front of me.

Your car is the Milky Way and Andromeda is the store. You can't get to the store (on the road or in space) without passing over/through the intervening road/space.

What do you mean the galaxies are right behind you? You are one of the galaxies (Milky Way) and you are moving headlong into the other one.

Do you think that as the Milky Way moves through space that bit of space disappears? What do you think happened to it?

You flew right through it and now it is behind you just like the road you drive over ends up behind you.

I don't understand where you think that space you just traversed goes to if not behind you as you pass over it.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 10:53 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 259 of 305 (887459)
08-04-2021 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by ICANT
08-04-2021 1:02 AM


Re: Get Real.
ICANT writes:

I understand there is a power that is streaching out the universe.
I understand there is a power causing the streaching to speed up.
I understand there is a power that even though things are streaching and speeding up that is holding the universe together.

We just have different names for that power. But you call that power whatever you want to call it.

Energy and power are two different things. Power is how fast you can deliver energy. Whatever the source of the energy causing the acceleration of the universe's expansion, it *is* energy. Typically it's expressed in units of length-2 because the simplest theory is that it's an inherent property of space, equivalent to the cosmological constant, but it can be transformed into the traditional units of energy.

What used to take me 30 minutes to complete now takes about 3 to 4 hours due to all the rest periods I have to take while doing the job.

I am not sure the universe is not getting to the same point in it's existence.

An analogy to biological aging is not evidence of anything.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 1:02 AM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by AZPaul3, posted 08-04-2021 12:15 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 260 of 305 (887460)
08-04-2021 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Percy
08-04-2021 11:38 AM


Re: Get Real.
An analogy to biological aging is not evidence of anything.

Wasn't meant to be.

This was a humorous quip to me in response to me calling him old.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Percy, posted 08-04-2021 11:38 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2571
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 261 of 305 (887463)
08-04-2021 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ICANT
08-04-2021 12:13 AM


Re: Get Real.
ICANT writes:

If I remember correctly there is no such thing as empty space. A vacuum would be the only thing that is said to be empty. But since it is said that things pop into existence in a vacuum, So a vacuum is not empty If you got everything out of it, it would not exist.

You can't seem to make up your mind.

A vacuum would be the only thing that is said to be empty.

As far as I can see you are the only one saying that. Gravitational fields and electromagnetic fields exist in a vacuum. Your mistake here is that you think spacetime and a vacuum are the same thing. Spacetime is every region of high pressure in the Universe as well as low pressure.

ICANT writes:

If the space between the Milky Way and Andromeda is not shrinking

It is not shrinking, it is expanding. The gravitational attraction is dragging the two galaxies toward each other at a faster rate than the expansion. The expansion is like a little headwind and if the gap was wider the headwind would be stronger. Since all space is expanding it will take longer for them to collide than if space was static with regards to expansion or contraction.

Looking beyond our local galaxy cluster, our whole cluster is experiencing mutual gravitational attraction with other distant clusters, but because there is far more space between them and us the expansion rate is greater than the mutual gravitational attraction so they are getting further and further from us.

This is just about the simplest story problem to understand. This is way easier to see than trying to figure out where two trains traveling at different speeds will crash into each other. Local forces can overcome the expansion rate of the Universe as a whole.

ICANT writes:

Evidence: Energy can not be created.

Energy can be converted into matter which is what we see in the universe.

And matter can be converted into energy and energy can be stored and released. Measuring all the kinds of energy and sources of energy in the Universe or even relatively small portions of the Universe beyond human capabilities right now, but it's an interesting challenge and we're learning all sorts of new things and discovering lots of new questions. Our observations of distant objects in the Universe are giving us insights into the history of the Universe and possible futures.

So far we have gotten muddled muddle rather than insight from you.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 12:13 AM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Michael MD, posted 08-05-2021 8:03 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 262 of 305 (887468)
08-04-2021 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ICANT
08-03-2021 11:29 PM


Re: Get Real.
ICANT writes:

The bounce hypothesis comes to mind as well as the string hypothesis.

But there is no way around the universe having a beginning to exist in and from non existence or being eternal.


You contradict yourself. You name two hypotheses and then claim there are none.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ICANT, posted 08-03-2021 11:29 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 263 of 305 (887469)
08-04-2021 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ICANT
08-04-2021 12:13 AM


Re: Get Real.
ICANT writes:

Why would I want to make such a stupid argument.


Why would a duck want to quack?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2021 12:13 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Michael MD
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: 04-03-2021


Message 264 of 305 (887473)
08-05-2021 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Tanypteryx
08-04-2021 1:20 PM


Re: Get Real.
Tanyptryx's Post treats the question of the nature of "vacuum" in a way that accords with present quantum-physics-theory. -Since this is still my Thread, I should point out that in my Ether Model, what quantum theory refers to as a vacuum, i.e., as being completely empty, would not apply.

In my Model, the ether is everywhere, both inside and outside everything, and what they are calling "totally empty" just refers to what they are picking up with quantum-forces-mediated measurements. I claim it's not truly a "vacuum."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-04-2021 1:20 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by nwr, posted 08-05-2021 10:22 AM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 266 by Percy, posted 08-05-2021 11:02 AM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 267 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-05-2021 12:16 PM Michael MD has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5789
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 265 of 305 (887477)
08-05-2021 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Michael MD
08-05-2021 8:03 AM


Re: Get Real.
It still needs evidence. You need to be able to map your model into actual reliable data.

Until you can do that, you've got nothing.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Michael MD, posted 08-05-2021 8:03 AM Michael MD has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 266 of 305 (887478)
08-05-2021 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Michael MD
08-05-2021 8:03 AM


Re: Get Real.
Michael MD writes:

Since this is still my Thread, I should point out that in my Ether Model, what quantum theory refers to as a vacuum, i.e., as being completely empty, would not apply.

Your made up theory has as much reality as Rivendell.

In my Model, the ether is everywhere, both inside and outside everything, and what they are calling "totally empty" just refers to what they are picking up with quantum-forces-mediated measurements. I claim it's not truly a "vacuum."

You are very wrong about quantum theory, which very explicitly does not hold that a vacuum is "completely empty." It instead believes all of space, regardless of its concentration of matter and definitely including a vacuum, to be a seething caldron of particles flitting in and out of existence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Michael MD, posted 08-05-2021 8:03 AM Michael MD has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2571
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 267 of 305 (887480)
08-05-2021 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Michael MD
08-05-2021 8:03 AM


Re: Get Real.
I should point out that in my Ether Model, what quantum theory refers to as a vacuum, i.e., as being completely empty, would not apply.

So, you haven't actually studied anything about quantum theory. And you do not know anything about vacuum.

and what they are calling "totally empty" just refers to what they are picking up with quantum-forces-mediated measurements.

Your misunderstanding physics seems to be complete.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Michael MD, posted 08-05-2021 8:03 AM Michael MD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Michael MD, posted 08-05-2021 7:56 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Michael MD
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: 04-03-2021


Message 268 of 305 (887484)
08-05-2021 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Tanypteryx
08-05-2021 12:16 PM


Re: Get Real.
OK, I am not a quantist, and a gap here and there in my discussion of quantum theories can be pointed out. But I dispute the way Tanypteryx authoritatively used the term "physics" in this context, as if it undisputedly represents a full description of forces, including all elemental forces, in addition to quantum forces. I believe the term "physics" should be qualified in such a context, in the present Thread, and instead one should call it "theoretical physics," when one cites interpretations of current-consensus quantum physics, which eschews the existence of an underlying ether such as the model of the ether I proposed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-05-2021 12:16 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-05-2021 10:24 PM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 270 by Percy, posted 08-06-2021 8:24 AM Michael MD has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2571
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 269 of 305 (887485)
08-05-2021 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Michael MD
08-05-2021 7:56 PM


Re: Get Real.
I based my judgement of your lack of knowledge on your misstatements about what Quantum physics says about vacuum.

But I was also pointing out that you don't seem to have any understanding of the whole field of physics.

You don't even have a wild-assed guess.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Michael MD, posted 08-05-2021 7:56 PM Michael MD has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 270 of 305 (887486)
08-06-2021 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Michael MD
08-05-2021 7:56 PM


Re: Get Real.
Michael MD writes:

OK, I am not a quantist, and a gap here and there in my discussion of quantum theories can be pointed out.

What you call gaps are actually gaping chasms of ignorance and error that you've shown no interest in rectifying. There's nothing wrong with ignorance. We're all ignorant of lots of things. What's notable about you is your determination to maintain your ignorance. Until you actually begin engaging in factual discussion we can only keep repeating to you, "No, you're still wrong."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Michael MD, posted 08-05-2021 7:56 PM Michael MD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Michael MD, posted 08-07-2021 11:12 AM Percy has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021