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Author Topic:   An Ether-Based Creation Model
Son Goku
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Posts: 1169
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 10.0


(2)
Message 91 of 126 (885758)
04-25-2021 3:43 PM


Entanglement
There's no need to "model" entanglement as if it were some unexplained phenomena.

It's explained and predicted by Quantum Theory and confirmed by experiment.

I think these kind of expectations of entanglement being some mysterious phenomena to be explained come from popular books that explain it as "spooky action at a distance". In reality there is no "action at a distance" because in entanglement the particles aren't remotely affecting each other faster than light. They're simply correlated with each other.

Now the strange thing is it's a correlation incompatible with the notion of there being an objective value for physical quantities that pre-exists measurement. When you drop the requirement of physical quantities having values outside of measurement you're allowed a broader class of correlations and the new correlations that become possible are called "entanglement".


Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by vimesey, posted 04-25-2021 4:12 PM Son Goku has acknowledged this reply
 Message 94 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 6:25 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1239
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 92 of 126 (885762)
04-25-2021 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Son Goku
04-25-2021 3:43 PM


Re: Entanglement
Son Goku, I would dearly love to have an evening over a few drinks with you, learning about the universe. Something tells me that you would be very gifted at leading people to a level of understanding they would so truly appreciate and be grateful for.

(And yes, I've had a few :-)

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Son Goku, posted 04-25-2021 3:43 PM Son Goku has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 04-25-2021 5:25 PM vimesey has not yet responded
 Message 95 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 6:37 PM vimesey has responded

  
Tangle
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Posts: 8119
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 93 of 126 (885766)
04-25-2021 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by vimesey
04-25-2021 4:12 PM


Re: Entanglement
Oh if only this was true! I spent two years at Uni living with a guy that was studying astro physics and really, really tried over years to understand his shit. But just couldn't get near it. It really pisses me off.

Had to stick to beetles.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 94 of 126 (885767)
04-25-2021 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Son Goku
04-25-2021 3:43 PM


Re: Entanglement
Allo Son Goku.

Michael MD, our OP, cannot seem to understand his own level of thinking. I don't think he can recognize this deeper level. Still it will be interesting to see how he responds.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Son Goku, posted 04-25-2021 3:43 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Michael MD, posted 04-27-2021 7:15 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 95 of 126 (885768)
04-25-2021 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by vimesey
04-25-2021 4:12 PM


Re: Entanglement
If we share rounds can the rest of us come?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by vimesey, posted 04-25-2021 4:12 PM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by vimesey, posted 04-26-2021 4:35 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1239
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 96 of 126 (885769)
04-26-2021 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by AZPaul3
04-25-2021 6:37 PM


Re: Entanglement
Absolutely ! :-)

(Bit more sober this morning, but always up for a drink and a chat - Covid permitting).


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 6:37 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by dwise1, posted 04-27-2021 9:26 AM vimesey has responded

  
Michael MD
Junior Member
Posts: 17
Joined: 04-03-2021


Message 97 of 126 (885809)
04-27-2021 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by AZPaul3
04-25-2021 6:25 PM


Re: Entanglement
How can I "respond" to counter-arguments from consensus quantists citing the various opinions on quantum entanglement of "authorities" whose fundamental assumption about ether is that it does not exist?

My model of entanglement should get serious consideration. To the quantists, I would cite Occam's Razor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by AZPaul3, posted 04-25-2021 6:25 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2021 7:24 AM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 04-27-2021 10:17 AM Michael MD has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 16820
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 98 of 126 (885810)
04-27-2021 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Michael MD
04-27-2021 7:15 AM


Re: Entanglement
quote:
My model of entanglement should get serious consideration. To the quantists, I would cite Occam's Razor.

Occam’s Razor says that your ideas should be rejected. We don’t need to assume your not-ether so we shouldn’t.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Michael MD, posted 04-27-2021 7:15 AM Michael MD has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4558
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 99 of 126 (885814)
04-27-2021 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by vimesey
04-26-2021 4:35 AM


Re: Entanglement
(Bit more sober this morning, but always up for a drink and a chat - Covid permitting).

Well, we are still in the ZOOMbie Apocalypse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by vimesey, posted 04-26-2021 4:35 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1239
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 100 of 126 (885815)
04-27-2021 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by dwise1
04-27-2021 9:26 AM


Re: Entanglement
Now there's a thought - I think that would be a lot of fun. Raising a glass with people on here would be something I'm pretty sure I would enjoy a great deal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by dwise1, posted 04-27-2021 9:26 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5814
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 101 of 126 (885817)
04-27-2021 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Michael MD
04-27-2021 7:15 AM


Re: Entanglement
How can I "respond" to counter-arguments from consensus quantists citing the various opinions on quantum entanglement of "authorities" whose fundamental assumption about ether is that it does not exist?

You respond by showing us, fully, completely, with copious amounts of math, how present theory is in error. You do that by showing us, fully, completely, with copious amounts of math, how your musings have viability.

My model of entanglement should get serious consideration.

You don't get to decide that. The discipline does. Just because you mumble doesn't mean we have to listen.

And right now there is no consideration of your mathless non-model of a concept that died over a century past. You have shown us nothing and we have nothing to seriously consider.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Michael MD, posted 04-27-2021 7:15 AM Michael MD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Michael MD, posted 04-28-2021 10:12 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Michael MD
Junior Member
Posts: 17
Joined: 04-03-2021


Message 102 of 126 (885867)
04-28-2021 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by AZPaul3
04-27-2021 10:17 AM


Re: Entanglement
By saying that the ether "died over a century past," you appear to refer to the Michelson-Morley Experiment of 1887 (MMX), which was accepted by physics as a"null" result, meaning it did not show evidence of an ether acting together with the light beams being measured, by using optical refraction instruments. The original MMX did measurements under different gravity settings (settings were judged according to the rotational motion of Earth, and measured at different angles.) Subsequent versions of MMX through the years have used different modifications of this (other than differing gravity settings), and physics continues to accept MMX as the chief reason for rejecting ether.

I claim that the type of ether I propose in my Model is not disproven by these MMXs, due to one simple, logical, reason. -All versions of MMX used measurements of light beams and they all assumed that any kind of ether would act in concert with the light beams, as a kind of "medium" for the light to pass through.

In my Ether Model, the ether is composed of individual units derived from first-causally-related processes, and as such would probably consist of ultimately-rarified ("elemental" units. I propose that units on that kind of size-scale would be vanishingly-smaller than the subquantal photons that transmit visible light beams. With my model, the ether would not be able to interact with the light beams, because no inertial interface would exist.

An example that would illustrate my point would be where a car is travelling through a stationary cloud of dust. The car ("photon") would not be affected by the individual dust particles ("ether units"), and would pass through without interacting with them at all (no inertial interface; the dust is simply brushed aside.)

I still claim physics is in error in dismissing the Ether, and in accepting the MMX as evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by AZPaul3, posted 04-27-2021 10:17 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by nwr, posted 04-28-2021 10:42 AM Michael MD has responded
 Message 110 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2021 6:53 PM Michael MD has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5698
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 103 of 126 (885873)
04-28-2021 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Michael MD
04-28-2021 10:12 AM


Re: Entanglement
I still claim physics is in error in dismissing the Ether, and in accepting the MMX as evidence.

I saw Michelson-Morley as posing a problem for ether theories. But I never saw it as a knockout blow.

The real problem for ether theories, was Maxwell's equations. They showed that the apparent wave properties of light can be explained without any appeal to an ether.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Michael MD, posted 04-28-2021 10:12 AM Michael MD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Michael MD, posted 04-28-2021 11:06 AM nwr has responded

  
Michael MD
Junior Member
Posts: 17
Joined: 04-03-2021


Message 104 of 126 (885876)
04-28-2021 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by nwr
04-28-2021 10:42 AM


Re: Entanglement
I do not accept wave theories grounded in quantum theory as evidence against the ether, either. -I won't try to go into great detail on it, but my ether model would have it that quantum waveforms are primarily generated by etheric processes. -According to my ether model, what we observe at the quantum level as the peak of a wave represents a cascade of near-quantum ("etheroidal") units, passing into the quantum realm, after being activated, vibrationally, by some outside energy source. The nadir of the wave represents local exhaustion of these energy units, which have passed from the etheroidal state into a quantum state, while the ether in the vicinity of the wave reverts to a quieter vibrational state, that it had before the energy-stimulus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by nwr, posted 04-28-2021 10:42 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by vimesey, posted 04-28-2021 11:22 AM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 107 by nwr, posted 04-28-2021 12:09 PM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-28-2021 12:16 PM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 04-28-2021 3:56 PM Michael MD has not yet responded
 Message 114 by Son Goku, posted 04-29-2021 8:44 AM Michael MD has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1239
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.3


(2)
Message 105 of 126 (885877)
04-28-2021 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Michael MD
04-28-2021 11:06 AM


Re: Entanglement
Would it surprise you to learn that the language of physics is mathematics and formulae ? E=mc squared and all that.

We have a number of members here who are pretty fluent in that language. Give it a go.

If you don't, you're gonna end up like a native English speaker insisting that a French waiter must converse with him in English - your food is gonna get spat on.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Michael MD, posted 04-28-2021 11:06 AM Michael MD has not yet responded

  
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