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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musing
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
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Message 29 of 85 (887705)
08-20-2021 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by AZPaul3
08-19-2021 10:51 PM


Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
It does not add any (or very much) space between near galaxies. An example is the space between Andromeda and our own Milky Way.

It adds a massive amount of space when there is just about nothing but matterless space.

The question about Dark Matter ( not to be confused with Dark Energy, which I was just talking about) having the same weight against Dark Energy as Baryonic (regular) Matter reminded me of the total reboot that our textbooks underwent after the discovery of Dark Energy (1998). The assumption that the expansion of space was slowing down ( with all sorts of mathematical equations and formulas) was the subject of a big debate about whether Dark Matter + regular matter were slightly more or less mass/energy than a 100% "flat" universe.

The unknown cause of the Big Bang and the equally unknown driver of the (ever ongoing) creation of space was truly an interesting "Dark" period, in science, that got a brightening new day when Dark Energy brought a new dawn. The old textbooks are fascinating to read but I am in awe of the true darkness that existed in science before the discovery of Dark Energy.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 08-19-2021 10:51 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2021 11:55 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 31 of 85 (887711)
08-21-2021 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
08-20-2021 11:55 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
What was the force and/or field that WAS SAID to fuel the expansion of space , in, say, 1991? What was it? Was it momentum from the Big Bang?

We know about Dark Energy, now.

( And the scientific community was universally wrong to say that the expansion of space was slowing down, when in fact it was speeding up by leaps and bounds)

(I will limit my response to this issue, for now)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 08-20-2021 11:55 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 12:28 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 32 of 85 (887712)
08-21-2021 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
08-20-2021 11:55 PM


Does Dark Energy enlarge an atom?
Keep this issue here, in a separate sub_discussion within this thread.

Explain yourself.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 34 of 85 (887714)
08-21-2021 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 12:28 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
You combined my two separate issues, in a single response, which I told you not to do.

The "explain yourself" was about your statement that Dark Energy is beginning to rip atoms apart. I suppose the question will come here.

Question:

Since atoms already have much space within themselves, then what is Dark Energy doing to that space? What known force is competing with the Dark Energy "force" (if that is what it is, as opposed to a field)?

Is an atom actually enlarged, via Dark Energy, or is it simply moving around in a larger volume of space, while it remains the same size?

Are you answers snd/or statements universally considered certain?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 12:28 AM AZPaul3 has responded

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 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 1:59 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 36 of 85 (887716)
08-21-2021 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 1:59 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Earlier, you were asked whether Dark Energy affected Dark Matter and Baryonic Matter in a different way. You then went on to talk about how it pulled space the same everywhere.

You then said, just now, that it was probably an unchanging force, right?

But earlier, I made mention of the pre-Dark Energy discovery period, which considered the entirely of matter and space to be potentially able to close back to a singularity. So the expansion of space was tied to a theory that matter could be pushed together as the whole of space in the universe shrunk.

That possibility might be disproved, due to the discovery of Dark Energy, but you still have the (nearly) same history of the Universe starting with an explosion of space, which (due to whatever various inflationary forces separated the 4 known forces of nature - starting with gravity), and forced the later clumps of matter to separate ( but not the individual quarks, later atoms, etc.).

Back to your response.

You say you were just talking about space being created everywhere. But the initial question, from another, was about the knowledge that Dark Matter( probably full of it's own particles) contributes to gravity ( do you feel gravity has a field particle?) and whether Dark Energy has a different repulsive force on that type of combo.

You now want to say that you never intended to imply that Dark Energy did anything but create/expand space. It is all about Gravity and Dark Energy? Just 2 forces?

I guess I will just say, in the form of a question, "Just what Do particles have to do with it?"


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 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 1:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

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 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 3:55 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 37 of 85 (887718)
08-21-2021 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 1:59 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
I still have a problem with the idea that concentrated matter ( like our Earth and atmosphere) does not counter the creation of space. I feel that space expansion can hypothetically be static. I just don't see why (local) matter does not stop it completely (in its neck of the woods)

Why am I wrong?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 1:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 40 of 85 (887803)
08-22-2021 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by AZPaul3
08-21-2021 3:55 AM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
What is the observational evidence that Dark Energy is constantly creating space between you and me?

I found, and then, lost a site that has scientists challenging that assumption.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 08-21-2021 3:55 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 08-22-2021 2:59 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 3:00 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 46 of 85 (887818)
08-22-2021 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 3:00 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Before the discovery of Dark Energy, we heard constantly about how just a tiny percentage of matter, as a ratio of the whole of space in the Universe, would literally be able to pull all of space back to a singularity.

A matter condensed region of the universe, like our Solar System ( and throw in our Galaxy, though it is less dense) is more than strong enough to counter Dark Energy, right? (Keep in mind that we dont even know if Dark Energy is a combined product from multiple inflationary factors, be they forces or fields)

I would ask you 2 questions, but you admitted that there was no observational evidence on Earth for local inflation.

Question 2 is whether there is any inflation of space observed in our Solar System.

Question 3 is whether there is evidence of spatial inflation, from Dark Energy or whatever else, in our galaxy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 3:00 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 7:34 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 56 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-22-2021 11:00 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 85 (887819)
08-22-2021 7:26 PM


19 June 2018 Physics World covers the scientists who point out the averaging problem.
The title of article is Dark Energy Deniers but the title is somewhat misleading.

The issue of the Cosmological Principle is mentioned.

There are scientists who feel that the expansion rate is inaccurately measured due to using averages that are taken from looking at the expansion in vast voids.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 8:49 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 49 of 85 (887822)
08-22-2021 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 7:34 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Repeat, since my post was short and targeted.

Your posts have been cluttered and misleading. You even seemed to bring religion into one recent post, unless I was mistaken.


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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 50 of 85 (887824)
08-22-2021 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 7:34 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Correction:

You not only brought religion into the discussion, but actually uttered "god" and then had the audacity to attribute it to me.

Despicable.

( yes, it was in post 42)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 7:34 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 8:19 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 53 of 85 (887827)
08-22-2021 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 8:19 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
So you went through all of these subtle slight of hands ( twisting my questions.twisting my words. then cluttering them), and you still are ducking the actual questions.

The questions are essentially whether or not we have actual evidence for expansion of space at the galaxy level ( and lower).

I know a direct answer to a direct question tends to trim 95% of words off your post, but that is your fault.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2021 8:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by xongsmith, posted 08-22-2021 10:37 PM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 64 by AZPaul3, posted 08-23-2021 9:51 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 54 of 85 (887828)
08-22-2021 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by AZPaul3
08-22-2021 8:49 PM


Re: 19 June 2018 Physics World covers the scientists who point out the averaging problem.
There is also the question of whether lumpy sections of the Universe see space expand like ithey do s in the vast void areas.

Back to the difference between space with particles and space without and the relative effects of the interaction with Dark Energy.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 57 of 85 (887832)
08-23-2021 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tanypteryx
08-22-2021 11:00 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Plenty of solid equations showed that space was affected by matter. Even to this day, with Dark Energy thrown into the mix.

Matter causes gravity to kick in. It not only slows the creation of space, but it can stop it enough to make it static.

And enough matter, combined with other factors ( such as the factors involved in space expansion), can c as ise all of space to contract.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-22-2021 11:00 PM Tanypteryx has responded

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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 58 of 85 (887833)
08-23-2021 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by xongsmith
08-22-2021 10:37 PM


Re: Dark Energy does not add any extra "space" to Space in a galaxy.
Then the evidence for creation of space in our Galaxy weakens.

And it is really relevant to a Dark Energy discussion.

Even the very existence of Dark Energy is based on assumptions. The biggest one is whether gravity has been correctly understood.


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 Message 55 by xongsmith, posted 08-22-2021 10:37 PM xongsmith has not yet responded

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