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Author Topic:   Winter Project
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 61 of 71 (907930)
03-02-2023 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by dronestar
03-02-2023 9:49 AM


Re: Polystoechotes punctata or giant lacewing, not an antlion nor a dragonfly?
But if the picture below is accurate, this lacewing's wings don't look like they fold over the body. Which is why it was mislabeled?

Can you clarify?
Insect specimens in collections are often "mounted" with their wings spread, even though that is not how hold their wings at rest. This is common with those orders that have showy wings, like butterflies. These are usually pinned specimens in glass topped drawers. Interestingly, dragonflies are usually not pinned in modern collections, but rather are placed in transparent 3x5 envelopes with a card containing all the specimen data, with their wings folded together over the back. Once insect specimens dry they are rigid and very fragile so envelopes keep all the parts together if they break and they can all still be examined with a microscope.
Almost all the articles about this specimen refer to it as a "Jurassic-era insect" which is completely meaningless. It is a modern insect, nobody who knows what they are talking about refer to birds as "Cretaceous birds" for example, this is a silly and misleading way to describe it. And they are trying to make a big deal about it but it's still alive and well in western North America, so it isn't extinct. Humans probably eliminated some weed that was critical to one of the lacewing's life stages so they disappeared from most of the east.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 63 by AZPaul3, posted 03-03-2023 5:16 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 62 of 71 (907933)
03-02-2023 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tanypteryx
03-02-2023 11:20 AM


Re: Polystoechotes punctata or giant lacewing, not an antlion nor a dragonfly?
Tanypteryx writes:
Almost all the articles about this specimen refer to it as a "Jurassic-era insect" which is completely meaningless. It is a modern insect, nobody who knows what they are talking about refer to birds as "Cretaceous birds" for example, this is a silly and misleading way to describe it.
I have the same reaction to similar articles. I've often thought of describing humans as living fossils because the first mammals appeared in the fossil record about 180 million years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-02-2023 11:20 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 63 of 71 (907966)
03-03-2023 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tanypteryx
03-02-2023 11:20 AM


Re: Polystoechotes punctata or giant lacewing, not an antlion nor a dragonfly?
refer to birds as "Cretaceous birds" for example, this is a silly
Well if you’re a cretaceous insect or a cretaceous flower you might be on the lookout for a cretaceous bird. However, there are no more cretaceous insects or cretaceous flowers. Their extinct. Have been for some time now. Come to think of it so are cretaceous birds.
Never mind.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-02-2023 11:20 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-03-2023 7:19 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 64 of 71 (907967)
03-03-2023 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by AZPaul3
03-03-2023 5:16 PM


Re: Polystoechotes punctata or giant lacewing, not an antlion nor a dragonfly?
However, there are no more cretaceous insects or cretaceous flowers. Their extinct.
Well, now that you mention it, there are some dragonfly species that are considered to be Cretaceous in age. The Petaluridae family has only 10 surviving species and genetic and biogeographic analysis of Tanypteryx hageni and Tachopteryx thoreyi estimate their ages as 70 million years and 100 million year respectively. These are the only 2 Petalurids to survive in North America and they may be the 2 oldest living species on the planet.
Ware, J., Beatty, C., Sanchez Herrera, M. et al. (2014) The petaltail dragonflies (Odonata: Petaluridae): mesozoic habitat specialists that survive to the modern day. Journal of Biogeography, 41, 1291–1300

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by AZPaul3, posted 03-03-2023 5:16 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 65 of 71 (907973)
03-04-2023 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Taq
03-02-2023 1:10 PM


Re: Polystoechotes punctata or giant lacewing, not an antlion nor a dragonfly?
Living Fossils? LOL...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Taq, posted 03-02-2023 1:10 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 66 of 71 (907991)
03-04-2023 5:48 PM


ChatGPT dragonfly disscussion
On a whim I signed up on ChatGPT and asked it a bunch of questions about dragonflies. There were lots and lots of errors and just plain fabrications of species names. I started with general questions and the answers were a bit vague. Later more direct questions about specific families and then individual species got answers that included the more general vague answers in error, but then just made up crap that was completely fictitious and so obviously wrong that it would be spotted by an expert.
Descriptions of the algorithm on the ChatGPT website says that it does NOT have access to the internet (this version, at least), so information may be spotty.
I do not plan to correct any of the errors I see because I think this will have a huge negative influence on scholarship. Subjects like complex insect systematics and cladistics and other biological sciences require references that can be checked for relevance and accuracy for publication which may reveal the use of ChatGPT type applications to cheat.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9276
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 67 of 71 (907995)
03-04-2023 6:45 PM


Back to Puerto Rico in a week
We are going to Puerto Rico the 11th. I hope to get a day or two in the mountains around the ancestral home of Utuado. Lots of streams and rivers. Maybe this time I will get an interesting photo of a dragonfly or damselfly.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-04-2023 6:51 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 69 by xongsmith, posted 03-04-2023 11:11 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 70 by AZPaul3, posted 03-04-2023 11:59 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 68 of 71 (907996)
03-04-2023 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
03-04-2023 6:45 PM


Re: Back to Puerto Rico in a week
This looks like a pretty good guide, Dragonflies and damselflies (Odonata) from Puerto Rico: a checklist with notes on distribution and habitat

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2023 6:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 69 of 71 (908004)
03-04-2023 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
03-04-2023 6:45 PM


Re: Back to Puerto Rico in a week
Good hunting!!!

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2023 6:45 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(3)
Message 70 of 71 (908005)
03-04-2023 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Theodoric
03-04-2023 6:45 PM


Re: Back to Puerto Rico in a week
Theo, didn't you do this last year? Didn't you ask us what pictures we would like to see back then? I know you and Tany are talking dragonfly or damselfly, but if there happens to be a pretty girl just hanging around then pictures would be real nice.
Bon Voyage.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 03-04-2023 6:45 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Theodoric, posted 03-05-2023 9:28 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9276
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 71 of 71 (908010)
03-05-2023 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by AZPaul3
03-04-2023 11:59 PM


Re: Back to Puerto Rico in a week
Yeah went last year, but didn't see any dragonflies or damselflies. We go every couple of years. Our boys 13, 16, and 40 were pissed they did not get to go so we promised we would take them this year. We are going to the Camuy Caves and if the moon and clouds are right, might go to the bioluminescent bay. The last time we took the two youngest we kayaked a bioluminescent bay.
I will try to get pictures of pretty ladies.
We are staying two nights in San Juan and the rest of the week at a beachfront villa in Hatillo. My father was born in Arecibo which is right next door. Always a fun trip.
If anyone wants advice on a safe tropical vacation, message me.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by AZPaul3, posted 03-04-2023 11:59 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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