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Author Topic:   The God Delusion Debate
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 99 (885851)
04-28-2021 8:43 AM


My 2 Cents
I watched the You Tube response video. Keep in mind that in these sorts of debates, each "side" has a different idea of what constitutes winning or losing. I have not yet watched the debate, but I never like to claim a side. I am of course a believer and will thus admit my bias and preconceptions. For the purpose of this topic, I will side with Robert, as he is a new member and thinks the way I traditionally have and do think.

Officially, as is my EvC persona, I claim moderate.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 99 (885853)
04-28-2021 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by robertleva
04-28-2021 7:46 AM


RL writes:

Lennox makes points (here and in some other amazing debates you should watch vs Hitchens) that get no rebuttal:

-Something from nothing
-fine tuning everywhere we look for it
-way too many nice to haves, not just the bare minimums needed for life
-evolution is actually just stacking more improbability on the already astounding improbability of the something from nothing "explanation" currently given
-evolution's mechanism is incremental change, but the DNA molecule cannot be improved upon incrementally(added)

-Entropy runs contrary to naturally organizing lifeforms
-"Primordial soup" that naturally occurring origins of life story we were all taught has been debunked
-sea floor spreading doesn't create any cracks in hard rock that spreads out over thousands of miles
-the earth's mantle is solid and prevents "subduction" of the plates

The list goes on and on.

I can see you are a true Lennox fan. I like him too, though I am open to the claims from the peanut gallery. One key issue brought up by dwise1 is the issue of honesty. I think in this debate that both men are honest. I suspect that each "side" if you will interprets the points being made (as to level of importance and relevance,at least) differently.

Edited by Phat, : added points to form one list for peanuts to address


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by robertleva, posted 04-28-2021 7:46 AM robertleva has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 13 of 99 (885856)
04-28-2021 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
04-28-2021 8:50 AM


Creationism As Central Theme?
Good morning, Percy.
Percy writes:

I'm familiar with Dawkin's science knowledge and argumentative style, and unless bound and gagged it's not possible he would have no response. PaulK mentions an issue with debate format.

I've not sat down and watched this debate either. I am not really interested in nor scientifically knowledgeable of the points in Creationism. As I have said before,(likely too many times ) I consider myself a Cosmological Creationist but not a Biblical Creationist. I respect traditional mainstream science in general, and my points of contention are more philosophical than they are material.

Edited by Phat, : spelling

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 04-28-2021 8:50 AM Percy has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2021 9:02 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 99 (885859)
04-28-2021 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
04-28-2021 3:36 AM


PaulK writes:

I intend to go through the transcript evaluating the arguments on each side. Rhetoric will be a secondary concern - insofar as the transcript reveals it.

Sounds like a good plan with which to build this topic. Do you basically agree with my point that each side interprets relevance and importance differently? As an example, jar often brings up SOURCE vs CONTENT as an approach towards thinking. Secular science would tend to focus on CONTENT more than they would SOURCE as to them, SOURCE would be nothing more than materialistic and objective. Am I right or wrong?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2021 3:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2021 9:12 AM Phat has replied
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 04-28-2021 9:16 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 17 of 99 (885860)
04-28-2021 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by dwise1
04-28-2021 9:05 AM


dwise1 writes:

If Lennox' opponent is not allowed to rebut, then there cannot be any rebuttal. That is not because Lennox' points have any merit (he does certain misrepresent evolution, so that demonstrates that his "points" have no merit).

It's the same pattern we saw in the infamous creationist debates which were rigged to allow the creationist to win. It is very telling that when creationists are confronted with most honest debate formats, they absolutely refuse to participate.

Note where the debate is being held, also. While some debates are held in neutral grounds, many debates (and moderators) are partisan towards one "side" or the other.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by dwise1, posted 04-28-2021 9:05 AM dwise1 has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 99 (885864)
04-28-2021 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by PaulK
04-28-2021 9:12 AM


Bias is unavoidable?
PaulK writes:

I really don’t know what to say about your strange ideas on source versus content.

They are taken from Language In Thought & Action, a book which jar introduced to me long ago. Perhaps he can chime in here in a minute.
Do you mean that you would give Lennox’ arguments more weight because he’s on your side?
I think that to some degree bias is unavoidable, though mainstream science is taught to avoid it.

Debate Outline writes:

First thesis: “Faith is blind; science is evidence based.
Second thesis: “Science supports atheism not Christianity.”
Third thesis: “Design is dead otherwise one must explain who designed the designer.
Fourth thesis: “Christianity is dangerous.”
Fifth thesis: “No one needs God to be moral.”
Sixth thesis: “Christian claims about the person of Jesus are not true.”.
Concluding statements

Just to frame my bias before actually listening to this debate, here are my quick answers to the debate format. We can see if I change my mind or if I dig in my heels like a stick-in-the-mud.

First Thesis. “Faith is blind; science is evidence based.
I realize that science is evidence based and ideally unbiased. Faith is blind in the way that Love is blind. Strong believers are in love with Jesus and will show some bias based in part on defending Him or attempting to. The more mature we get, the more we realize that our number One Love needs no defending.
Second thesis: “Science supports atheism not Christianity.”
Off the cuff? I agree based on my reasoning from the first thesis.
Third thesis: “Design is dead otherwise one must explain who designed the designer.
This one is above my pay grade. No comment so far.
Fourth thesis: “Christianity is dangerous.”
AZ Paul3 and Tangle writ large. Ive never agreed with this assertion though I know that many bad things were done using Christian beliefs as a justification.

I'll continue in a minute.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2021 9:12 AM PaulK has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 99 (885866)
04-28-2021 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Percy
04-28-2021 9:16 AM


In General
I have the same reaction as PaulK - this sounds pretty weird. Are you maybe thinking of argument from authority versus argument from evidence?

Off the cuff, I would say that Believers/creationists would tend to use the argument from authority whereas Evolutionists/Science Based Critical Thinkers would use the Argument from Evidence. This is a generalization, though.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 04-28-2021 9:16 AM Percy has seen this message

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 36 of 99 (885928)
04-29-2021 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by robertleva
04-28-2021 10:35 AM


I Will Give My Honest Opinion After Watching
RL writes:

I think I see where the thread is going so I will try to summarize / predict the overall outcome:

Dawkins fails to convince the faithful.
Lennox fails to convince the unfaithful.

Well thats a spoiler alert! I would say it slightly differently, though.

  • Dawkins fails to impress those who adhere to the argument from authority.(SOURCE, though dwise1 has a point in that many creationists make up their own science and have to make it fit since God has never directly taught us anything that we thus never need to learn regarding science)

  • Lennox fails to impress the critically thinking skeptics who adhere to the argument from evidence. (Objective Applicable Facts over Strongly held Beliefs...CONTENT)

    I have just started watching the debate.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by robertleva, posted 04-28-2021 10:35 AM robertleva has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by PaulK, posted 04-29-2021 8:24 AM Phat has seen this message
     Message 45 by dwise1, posted 04-29-2021 2:05 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15965
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 39 of 99 (885933)
    04-29-2021 8:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
    04-28-2021 9:11 PM


    Re: Disagree = Hate
    RL writes:

    The discussions themselves are divisive and toxic and are yet another vehicle for the enemy to spread hate and discord.

    AZ writes:

    You mean someone will disagree with your world view and you find that hateful, divisive, toxic. To you, of course it is. You're a theist.

    You won't even consider opposition, harsh or otherwise. We are the enemy, demons, devils, not to be seen, not to be heard, to be opposed with all power.

    One point which I just thought of is my response to the question of why God even allowed Satan to exist. According to popular mythos and dogma, Satan was once Lucifer, one of three main Arch-Angels that were in effect Gods spirit beings in charge of the angelic realm. The other two were Gabriel and Michael.

    So Lucifer allegedly rebelled. (God would have had to foreknowing made it possible to rebel to begin with) and took 1/3 of the angelic realm with him.

    So why did God allow potential evil to become actualized through this rebellion?

    Here is a clue. Satan is known as the Tempter. He is good at tempting or conning. (convincing) And another word for tempting is tempering.

    Industrial Metallurgists,LLC writes:

    Why Temper Through Hardened Steel

    Imagine you’re a warrior during the middle ages and it’s time to get a new sword. So, you go to a blacksmith to buy a sharp, shiny long sword. A few weeks later you’re in a battle, fighting at the front of the shield wall. You take a huge swing at the enemy, who meets your blow with his sword, and your sword shatters into several pieces. Unfortunately for you, your blacksmith outsourced a batch of swords to a blacksmith on the other side of town who didn’t have time to temper the swords. As a result, the swords were strong, but brittle. Their lack of toughness meant that they could not absorb much of an impact before fracturing.


    My conclusion? Satan was allowed to exist in order to temper humans. To make them stronger. Thats my 2 cents.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 04-28-2021 9:11 PM AZPaul3 has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by jar, posted 04-29-2021 8:59 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15965
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 43 of 99 (885937)
    04-29-2021 10:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 41 by jar
    04-29-2021 8:59 AM


    Re: Disagree = Hate
    well if thats the case, God told him to rebel

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by jar, posted 04-29-2021 8:59 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by jar, posted 04-29-2021 10:12 AM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15965
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 51 of 99 (885980)
    04-30-2021 9:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 50 by PaulK
    04-30-2021 12:51 PM


    Re: “No one needs God to be moral.”
    PaulK writes:

    Dawkins has the better points - it’s certainly not true that Bible and Quran have bad rules and good and that our ideas of morality have shifted without a clear message from religion - and many people would say that some changes are very much for the better. So Dawkins gets a narrow win here.

    Is he essentially saying that though both books are of earlier eras and thus somewhat dated, they are relevant or irrelevant based on cultural interpretation?

    Ive been doing other things on my days off and have not kept up. I do, however respect your commentaries and to a large degree trust your impressions. I trust your content but I also give weight to having debated with you for several years.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2021 12:51 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by PaulK, posted 05-01-2021 1:25 AM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15965
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 53 of 99 (885983)
    05-01-2021 2:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 45 by dwise1
    04-29-2021 2:05 PM


    Re: I Will Give My Honest Opinion After Watching
    dwise1 writes:

    Now, actual creationists (ie, those who believe in the actual Christian god who is Sovereign over Nature, unlike the creationist and ID god, the God of the Gaps, who is destroyed by knowledge and must hide in fear of Nature) would believe that their god did indeed create the universe to function in the way we find it to function. Thus when science discovers how the universe works, then an actual creationist would see that as science discovering what their god had done. And when we discover naturalistic explanations for how something works or originated, then actual creationists would see that as their god working through the very natural processes that He had created.

    No conflict between creation and evolution.

    But these other creationists do no believe in the Christian god, but rather in the false theology of the God of the Gaps. They see science as the enemy of their religion because their religion demands that reality doesn't exist in order to allow their god to exist. Which means that they believe that science is trying to disprove God -- what foolishness! They believe that their god only works through supernatural acts, so any naturalistic explanation for anything is seen as opposing their god.

    It is only when religion opposes reality that there is conflict with science.

    I believe that there is One God. Even if we have many religions, there is One God. Even if the entire theory of multiverses were true there would be but One God ruling over all of them.

    As a Christian, I believe that Jesus is God incarnate. After thinking about my chosen beliefs, I will add that there should be little to no conflict between Science and God. (I say God instead of religion on purpose.) I believe that there is a supernatural realm and an overall conflict between Good personified (as Jesus Christ) and Evil personified through human pawns and perhaps later through an antichrist world leader. My theological jury is still deadlocked regarding the actuality of this belief. That all being said, God works in many ways that are not supernatural. He can use a Donkey to speak. He can and does use various humans of various beliefs to teach and encourage.

    While I dont agree that all apologists are liars or on par with those other creationists you mention, I will allow for the possibility that many of the goats are Biblical Christians and Creationists. (Not ALL, Jar! )

    Edited by Phat, : punctuation


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by dwise1, posted 04-29-2021 2:05 PM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 54 by jar, posted 05-01-2021 6:39 AM Phat has taken no action
     Message 56 by dwise1, posted 05-01-2021 1:24 PM Phat has taken no action

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15965
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 72 of 99 (886076)
    05-05-2021 8:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 70 by jar
    05-05-2021 7:51 AM


    Bias is unavoidable?
    jar,replying to marc9000 writes:

    There is nothing in science that is atheistic.


    True, but there appears to be nothing theistic either. You yourself have used science to justify describing the Creator of all seen and unseen as unknowable,which is to me a clear bias against Christianity. You and ringo also assert scientifically that Jesus likely never existed and that the Virgin Birth is simply a marketing tool. You can say that your argument is unbiased and is simply logic, reason, and reality in action, but the fact that you market the notion that evidence based logic is the cornerstone of your religion and belief while literally showing bias towards organized Christianity and intolerance towards its believers
    is more than adequate proof that you are biased and that you hide behind science nearly as if it has replaced religion and belief in the modern world. Don't try and con marc9000 by palming the pea with your slick definitions and Socratic masters porch based arguments. marc000 may be a bit conservative and a bit clueless on some of the particulars but I know (as does everyone else) that your arguments are designed to expose and demonize CCoI believers. Which is biased. Sorry, Charlie.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by jar, posted 05-05-2021 7:51 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 79 by jar, posted 05-05-2021 9:13 AM Phat has seen this message
     Message 82 by ringo, posted 05-05-2021 11:20 AM Phat has seen this message

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15965
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    (1)
    Message 74 of 99 (886078)
    05-05-2021 8:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
    05-05-2021 7:52 AM


    Bias is unavoidable?
    Flipping the script, I agree with your points, Tangle. Nobody was forced to tolerate Trump, but many populist conservatives thought that he was shut down by a liberally leaning media. Personally, I disagree. Free speech is alive and well in America. Now it could be argued that Trump himself attempted to shut down liberally leaning free speech and demand that his speech be allowed to be heard.
    Tangle writes:

    No one has to tolerate another's speech.

    Agreed. marc9000 needs to provide an argument as to why the conservative speeches (of the past 5 years) need to be heard...particularly those of Donald Trump.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2021 7:52 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 81 by Tangle, posted 05-05-2021 11:12 AM Phat has seen this message

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15965
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 75 of 99 (886079)
    05-05-2021 8:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 73 by PaulK
    05-05-2021 8:27 AM


    The God Authoritarian Delusion Debate
    PaulK writes:

    It should be obvious that if the problem is a lack of intelligent posts from one side, the solution is for that side to provide intelligent posts. A good discussion requires worthwhile posts from both sides.

    We should add that to the Forum Guidelines
    PaulK writes:

    There is nothing “dishonest” in telling the obvious truth, there aren’t any Marxists here, for instance. At least not as far as I know.

    Ringo is darn close! Yet he cloaks it with "what Jesus said to do." And Jesus was far far from Marxism. This whole idea that the world should be some secular Kum Ba Yah brother and sisterhood is never gonna fly on my watch!

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2021 8:27 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by PaulK, posted 05-05-2021 8:48 AM Phat has replied
     Message 84 by ringo, posted 05-05-2021 11:29 AM Phat has taken no action

      
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