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Author Topic:   Squish
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 16 of 28 (886116)
05-06-2021 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
05-06-2021 2:47 PM


Aren't tidal forces near a black hole so great that long before you reached the event horizon you would already be spaghettified?

Depends on the size of the BH.

In your 10 solar mass example, yes. You would be crushed well prior to the event horizon. My reading indicates that super massive BHs have shear forces most prominent inside the EH than out, so it is possible to cross the horizon before the crush begins.

quote:
The point at which tidal forces destroy an object or kill a person will depend on the black hole's size. For a supermassive black hole, such as those found at a galaxy's center, this point lies within the event horizon, so an astronaut may cross the event horizon without noticing any squashing and pulling, although it remains only a matter of time, as once inside an event horizon, falling towards the center is inevitable.[8] For small black holes whose Schwarzschild radius is much closer to the singularity, the tidal forces would kill even before the astronaut reaches the event horizon.[9][10] For example, for a black hole of 10 Sun masses[note 2] the above-mentioned rod breaks at a distance of 320 km, well outside the Schwarzschild radius of 30 km. For a supermassive black hole of 10,000 Sun masses, it will break at a distance of 3200 km, well inside the Schwarzschild radius of 30,000 km.

Spaghettification - Wikipedia

Doesn't matter, apparently, because in an actively feeding BH the photon sphere and magnetic force lines thick with plasma can start literally parsecs from the BH. Fry your noodles first before you make spaghetti.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 05-06-2021 2:47 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20101
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 17 of 28 (886117)
05-06-2021 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AZPaul3
05-06-2021 4:39 PM


AZPaul3 writes:

In your 10 solar mass example, yes. You would be crushed well prior to the event horizon. My reading indicates that super massive BHs have shear forces most prominent inside the EH than out, so it is possible to cross the horizon before the crush begins.

Oh, of course. So if instead of a typical black hole I had used the one at the center of our galaxy I would have gotten a different answer. That possibility hadn't occurred to me. Neat.

--Percy


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 18 of 28 (886118)
05-06-2021 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
05-06-2021 3:28 PM


Re: Puzzler
How is this possible?

Relativistic effects. You already know the cite so I'll leave it out for the fun of others.

First one is cute. I liked it.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Mike Holland
Member
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 19 of 28 (886218)
05-11-2021 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
05-05-2021 7:03 PM


Re: Squish
Paul, according to your Wiki reference,

"Mechanisms behind the composition of jets remain uncertain."

and according to your more detailed reference,

"As was presented by J. McKinney, E. Blackman, and D. Meier at the conference (see also McKinney 2006; Meier, Koide, & Uchida 2000; Camenzind 2005), theorists are now concentrating on production of jets via differentially twisting magnetic fields tied to the ergosphere of the central BH. One of the primary difficulties is to get enough particles across the field lines so that the jet is more than just Poynting flux."

So there is currently no real theory as to how the jets are formed. I am sticking to my story as a viable explanation, but need to think a bit more about the affects of space drag.

I believe that there is a region a little way away from the event horizon where gravity, time dilation and pressure will interact to allow my mechanism to work and generate strong streams of matter accelerating towards the poles. I need a helpful mathematician to redo the old collapse calculations but including the effects of pressure. Liu and Zhang did the calculations for large massive spheres falling into a black hole, which is part of the solution, but they ignored spin and pressure. Their calculations did not show any spagettification, but only the outer parts of the spheres catching up with the inner parts as the inner parts were more time delayed.

NB. Spin and space drag play an important part in my model. The space drag ensures that infalling matter is spread evenly all around the equator, which accounts for the squish all meeting at the poles so precisely.

Edited by Mike Holland, : NB added.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 05-05-2021 7:03 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2021 2:29 AM Mike Holland has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 20 of 28 (886256)
05-12-2021 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Mike Holland
05-11-2021 7:43 AM


Re: Squish
So there is currently no real theory as to how the jets are formed. I am sticking to my story as a viable explanation, but need to think a bit more about the affects of space drag.

That's why I said we have quite a viable set of explanations with at least some evidence of what relativistic jets are in actively feeding galactic nuclei and Wiki confirmed this. We do have quite a set of various explanations for the jets.

The one I cited is one explanation (key phrase) with some evidenced physics. There are others if you go looking for them.

Do you have such an explanatory paper? Note the scholarship involved with field definitions, math and the data analysed.

We do have evidenced-based hypotheses on the jets. This is not an unstudied field. Those proposals are out there now. If you do not have a paper of comparable scholarship to present then you cannot compete at that level. You will not be heard.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Mike Holland, posted 05-11-2021 7:43 AM Mike Holland has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Mike Holland, posted 05-13-2021 2:53 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Mike Holland
Member
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 21 of 28 (886271)
05-13-2021 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by AZPaul3
05-12-2021 2:29 AM


Re: Squish
Paul, has anyone ever done a calculation of simulation of an object falling into a black hole which shows spaghettification happening? The only one I know of is Liu and Zhang " Exact solutions for shells collapsing towards a pre-existing black hole", Phys letters 17/8/2009, and their calculations only showed the compression due to time dilation. Spaghettification sounds likely, but time dilation would win in the end because it goes up to infinity whereas gravity doesn't (not at the event horizon, anyway). (NB. Novikov slipped up in one of his books that I have, and claimed that gravity was infinite at the event horizon. )

Has anyone ever calculated matter falling into a black hole and taken pressure into account?

Mike


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 05-12-2021 2:29 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2021 3:27 AM Mike Holland has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 22 of 28 (886272)
05-13-2021 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mike Holland
05-13-2021 2:53 AM


Re: Squish
Has anyone ever calculated matter falling into a black hole and taken pressure into account?

I wouldn't know. I'm a rank amateur at this stuff. A very dangerous one because I actually know how to spell cmb.

But this is exactly the kind of proposal you should research, design, justify and present.

No small order.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Mike Holland, posted 05-13-2021 2:53 AM Mike Holland has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Mike Holland, posted 05-13-2021 6:16 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Mike Holland
Member
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 23 of 28 (886290)
05-13-2021 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by AZPaul3
05-13-2021 3:27 AM


Re: Squish
Really? And how do you spell cmb?

I'm hardly going to start a research project. I completed a B.Sc in maths and physics in 1960 and then spent my life with computer software. I'm now 82, and Astronomy has been a hobby of mine since I was 14. So I need to find a kind mathematician who will do the calculations for me.

I read a lot of science, and think a lot about it. I also follow the "frozen star" heresy and don't accept the black hole dogma. Not quite, anyway. But that's another story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2021 3:27 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2021 7:15 PM Mike Holland has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5838
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 24 of 28 (886291)
05-13-2021 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Mike Holland
05-13-2021 6:16 PM


Re: Squish
Really? And how do you spell cmb?

Brain farts are so annoying. The answer is right there on the edge of my mind just out of reach. Give it time. It'll dawn on me in a few hours here.

If it's math help you want then this forum is not your best choice.

Try a math forum like Math Forums.

They have a physics forum where you may be able to pose your problem.

If you don't get too wrapped up in that using up all your time and you're looking for a little diversion, then come on back here to EvC, grab a topic, and opine with the rest of us younguns.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Mike Holland, posted 05-13-2021 6:16 PM Mike Holland has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Mike Holland, posted 05-13-2021 9:31 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Mike Holland
Member
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 25 of 28 (886292)
05-13-2021 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by AZPaul3
05-13-2021 7:15 PM


Re: Squish
Actually I find forums unsatisfactory. I would like to sit down with an astrophysicist over a cup of coffee or three, and discuss these matters, but I don't know any astrophysicists. I tried emailing Saul Teukolsky, but he responded with some nonsense reasons for accepting the existence of black holes and then said he was too busy to continue the conversation.

Even if I could do the mathematics, I could never get it published because I am not associated with any scientific or research institution.


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 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 05-13-2021 7:15 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 05-14-2021 1:53 AM Mike Holland has not yet responded
 Message 27 by anglagard, posted 05-14-2021 12:00 PM Mike Holland has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 28 (886293)
05-14-2021 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Mike Holland
05-13-2021 9:31 PM


Re: Squish
MH writes:

Even if I could do the mathematics, I could never get it published because I am not associated with any scientific or research institution.

What is it that you want published and why specifically do you want it published?

Oh wait...just saw this:

I'm hardly going to start a research project. I completed a B.Sc in maths and physics in 1960 and then spent my life with computer software. I'm now 82, and Astronomy has been a hobby of mine since I was 14. So I need to find a kind mathematician who will do the calculations for me.

I read a lot of science, and think a lot about it. I also follow the "frozen star" heresy and don't accept the black hole dogma. Not quite, anyway. But that's another story.

82? Wow...congrats for staying strong! Im just a kid of 61. (And even now I realize that old age is hell on the body. Its good for my mind though....so far.

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Mike Holland, posted 05-13-2021 9:31 PM Mike Holland has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2305
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


(2)
Message 27 of 28 (886296)
05-14-2021 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Mike Holland
05-13-2021 9:31 PM


Re: Squish
MH writes:

Actually I find forums unsatisfactory. I would like to sit down with an astrophysicist over a cup of coffee or three, and discuss these matters, but I don't know any astrophysicists. I tried emailing Saul Teukolsky, but he responded with some nonsense reasons for accepting the existence of black holes and then said he was too busy to continue the conversation. Even if I could do the mathematics, I could never get it published because I am not associated with any scientific or research institution.

Contact me in August. I have connections to Mathematicians who work with Cosmologists on a daily basis through the VLA HQ on the campus of NMT. If that does not work, I also know many scientists at LANL, Sandia, Kirtland, White Sands, and NMT. I'm sure that anyone can lead me to the right person to help your quest.

Now, this will require a very clear account of what information you desire from the experts, as it will make my end easier and will help immensely toward its success.

Give me enough time to await the dying throes of CV19 for NMT to fully reopen to the public, my next get together with friends and family, and providing you ask questions with the utmost clarity, there is a decent chance I can find someone who has the knowledge you require. After all, in my experience they are more than willing to help anyone who seeks their knowledge, they are more than thrilled anyone who has partial knowledge would look to them for help, and are more than willing to provide assistance if their time is felt appreciated.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Mike Holland, posted 05-13-2021 9:31 PM Mike Holland has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Mike Holland, posted 05-15-2021 4:29 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Mike Holland
Member
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 28 of 28 (886309)
05-15-2021 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by anglagard
05-14-2021 12:00 PM


Re: Squish
Thanks for the offer, Anglagard. I will work out exactly what I would like calculated and write it up here, and make a note in August on my calendar.

But I need to read up on Kerr black holes a bit more first.

Edited by Mike Holland, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by anglagard, posted 05-14-2021 12:00 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
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