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Author Topic:   Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals?
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 631 of 773 (892543)
03-09-2022 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Tanypteryx
03-09-2022 4:57 PM


Re: Gold
And do not like a smudge.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-09-2022 4:57 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-09-2022 7:39 PM jar has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


Message 632 of 773 (892544)
03-09-2022 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by jar
03-09-2022 7:28 PM


Re: Gold
Oh, and corrosion resistant too.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by jar, posted 03-09-2022 7:28 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18458
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 633 of 773 (892545)
03-09-2022 8:01 PM


R E S P E C T
You guys have no clue, in my opinion. Time will tell. Remember these arguments and rather than being made fun of for listening to "conmen gold dealers" you will hopefully give me some respect.
Answer these questions.
1) If Gold is a barbarous relic, why do all central banks not only maintain large amounts but are in fact buying more? China and Russia and India and many other countries also maintain large reserves.
The fact is, Gold competes directly with the US Dollar. Were I to place my faith on the stability (long-term) of either asset, I would choose gold and imagine that most of you would not.
2) The Federal Reserve "created" 11 trillion dollars with the stroke of a pen.
In 1970, when Nixon decoupled Gold from the Dollar (Due largely to the fact that countries were demanding payment in Gold rather than Dollars...itself a clue) Gold rose from $35.00 an ounce to over $800.00. It is in the interests of the Federal Reserve that Gold be kept in its cage rather than allowing the global market to determine its value.
You guys may think that everyone I listen to is a conman, but I have yet to see anyone with better arguments. Percy tried.
3

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-09-2022 9:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 634 of 773 (892551)
03-09-2022 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 633 by Phat
03-09-2022 8:01 PM


Re: R E S P E C T
1) If Gold is a barbarous relic, why do all central banks not only maintain large amounts but are in fact buying more? China and Russia and India and many other countries also maintain large reserves.
Ask yourself who is selling and why?
Countries and banks use it as a physical place holder for large transactions between themselves. Two parties agree to a specific price for say a ton of guns and they both agree to a specific amount of gold at the price of gold at that specific moment and strike a bargain. They want something physically real to trade for something else that's physically real.
Gold is only useful as a monetary unit in a functioning economy. When an economy crashes gold isn't worth crap for individual needs. Supply lines fail and goods and services that aid personal survival are what has value.
No one in Venezuela gave a flying fuck about gold when their economy collapsed and they were worrying about food and water to survive one more day. They were bartering for food and services, not gold.
Here's a couple questions for you.
1. What do you think the sequence of events would be if the economic calamity you fear happens?
1a. What are the banks going to do with their gold?
1b. What are countries going to do with their gold?
2. What are you going to do with your gold? Say you have a quarter sized piece of gold, what are you going to go with it?
And do you realize that the price is entirely artificial because those gold bullion hording entities keep it squirreled away from the economies? If it was all flowing through the planet's economies it wouldn't be worth squat.
ABE: I thought of this driving home from work.
Why don't you ever think of the rise in the price of gold as inflation?
Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Phat, posted 03-09-2022 8:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 8:56 AM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 9:38 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18458
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 635 of 773 (892555)
03-10-2022 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Tanypteryx
03-09-2022 9:15 PM


Re: R E S P E C T
Tanypteryx writes:
No one in Venezuela gave a flying fuck about gold when their economy collapsed and they were worried about food and water to survive one more day. They were bartering for food and services, not gold.
Not all Venezualians had gold, to begin with. For that matter, a small percentage of Americans own gold. (12%) This does not mean that nobody cares about gold as a stable means of exchange. In Venezuela, people were shaving chips off of gold *in the mining towns) to pay for food, a haircut, or any other exchange needed.
Venezuela still had a functioning economy. Ukraine, for instance, does not.
I am answering your questions now. Give me a few minutes.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-09-2022 9:15 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Theodoric, posted 03-10-2022 9:18 AM Phat has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9373
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 636 of 773 (892556)
03-10-2022 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 635 by Phat
03-10-2022 8:56 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
Read the full story. The people are paid in gold because that is what is mined locally. It is not people that were holding gold as an investment. This is a very localized phenomenon. To see Venezuela has a functioning economy is generous at best.
There is no similarity between what is happening in Venezuela and gold as an investment vehicle.
In Venezuela, people break off flakes of gold to pay for meals and haircuts | Financial Post

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 8:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 9:48 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18458
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 637 of 773 (892557)
03-10-2022 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Tanypteryx
03-09-2022 9:15 PM


Re: R E S P E C T
Tanypteryx writes:
No one in Venezuela gave a flying fuck about gold when their economy collapsed and they were worried about food and water to survive one more day. They were bartering for food and services, not gold.
I found this:
Venezuelans Break Off Flakes of Gold to Pay for Meals, Haircuts
10/20/21
Hyperinflation has stripped the local currency of its value
Dollars, pesos, reais and euros are also common alternatives
quote:
To fathom the magnitude of Venezuela’s financial collapse, travel southeast from Caracas, past the oil fields and over the Orinoco River, and head deep into the savanna that blankets one of the remotest corners of the country.
There, in the barber shops and restaurants and hotels that constitute the main strip of one dusty little outpost after another, you’ll find prices displayed in grams of gold.
I am working on your questions. Give me a few minutes.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-09-2022 9:15 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2022 10:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18458
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 638 of 773 (892559)
03-10-2022 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 636 by Theodoric
03-10-2022 9:18 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
I reallize this. We both found the same article!
Theodoric writes:
There is no similarity between what is happening in Venezuela and gold as an investment vehicle.
Gold is not an investment. It is an anchor. A default store of "value". This is why Central Banks own it. It is a default "reset button".
my article (found at a different spot from yours though essentially the same article) writes:
Jorge Pena, 20, figured that eighth came to three small flakes -- the equivalent of $5.
Now let me ask you a few questions. In the article, Jorge (who lived in a mining town) paid in chips of gold. The barber calculated the chips as being "worth $5.00".
So tell me. Does the US Dollar support the price (and value) of commodity investments such as Gold? Or is Gold, though decoupled from most fiat currencies, still the basic standard? I have an answer but would be interested to hear yours.
Edited by Phat, : punctuation

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Theodoric, posted 03-10-2022 9:18 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by jar, posted 03-10-2022 10:07 AM Phat has replied
 Message 640 by Theodoric, posted 03-10-2022 10:15 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 652 by AZPaul3, posted 03-10-2022 9:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 639 of 773 (892560)
03-10-2022 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by Phat
03-10-2022 9:48 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
Phat, really try to think!
Gold is NOT a standard, it is a commodity and like diamonds a commodity that has an artificial price value that is based ALMOST ENTIRELY on the fact that it's availability is artificially controlled.
Edited by jar, : applin spallin

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 9:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 10:44 AM jar has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9373
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 640 of 773 (892561)
03-10-2022 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by Phat
03-10-2022 9:48 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
Gold is not a standard for anything. Fiat currencies are not linked to gold. The price of gold fluctuates daily relative to the dollar. The dollar does not fluctuate relative to gold.
Do you want to get into a discussion on intrinsic value? Your 19th century understanding of the economy and finance is so cute.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 9:48 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by jar, posted 03-10-2022 10:23 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 641 of 773 (892562)
03-10-2022 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by Theodoric
03-10-2022 10:15 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
You need to explain to Phat that the 19th century was not 100 years ago and that we are currently in the 21st. century.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by Theodoric, posted 03-10-2022 10:15 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18458
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 642 of 773 (892563)
03-10-2022 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by jar
03-10-2022 10:07 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
So again...answer my question. Why do Central Banks continue to own gold? And if you look into it, some central banks have been buying gold recently.
All that Putin has left to control is the gold that Russia has. But I disagree with you guys. Gold is still the final fallback value for the world....not the US Dollar nor any other currency.
You may argue that there is a basket of currencies that function as the global reserve currency. Currently, the US dollar is the primary one.
What is interesting is that the Fed defines their own value of those gold holdings.
Gold is NOT a standard, it is a commodity and like diamonds a commodity that has an artificial price value that is based ALMOST ENTIRELY on the fact that it's availability is artificially controlled.
The Fed can no more control the price value of gold than they can the US Dollar.
Finally answer me this. Why is the accepted value of gold (worldwide) based on dollars?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by jar, posted 03-10-2022 10:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by jar, posted 03-10-2022 10:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 644 by Theodoric, posted 03-10-2022 11:03 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 646 by Taq, posted 03-10-2022 5:40 PM Phat has replied
 Message 677 by ringo, posted 03-12-2022 11:05 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(4)
Message 643 of 773 (892564)
03-10-2022 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by Phat
03-10-2022 10:44 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
Think Phat. Actually LOOK at your own numbers.
The Gold Certificates are an insignificant part of the Federal Holdings , less even than the Inflation Compensation amount.
The reality is that like any commodity, the Fed can think it's worth some arbitrary amount but if it gets used it MUST be at the current international market price. The Fed cannot determine the real value of the gold it holds.
The accepted value of gold at any instant is the spot price.
Phat, basics. Learn the basics.
Gold is just another commodity like pork bellies and oil and lead and tungsten and steel and coal and corn and rice and ... the list is near endless.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 10:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9373
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 644 of 773 (892565)
03-10-2022 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 642 by Phat
03-10-2022 10:44 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
Finally answer me this. Why is the accepted value of gold (worldwide) based on dollars?
What an extremely silly question. The US dollar is the default world currency, because of its stability. Gold prices have no effect on the value of the dollar.
Gold is a commodity not a standard.
Facts Phat.
The Fed - Does the Federal Reserve own or hold gold?.
There is also a huge difference between nations holding gold reserves and individuals investing in gold, gold futures and gold mining stocks. Did they get you into mining stocks too?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 642 by Phat, posted 03-10-2022 10:44 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by jar, posted 03-10-2022 12:42 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 645 of 773 (892566)
03-10-2022 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Theodoric
03-10-2022 11:03 AM


Re: R E S P E C T
Plus the International Gold Reserves are valued at about $43.00 an ounce.
It's a perfect example of just how arbitrary gold values are, the arbitrary valuation is totally unrelated to reality or any intrinsic worth.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Theodoric, posted 03-10-2022 11:03 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-10-2022 6:00 PM jar has replied

  
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