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Author Topic:   Who's the bigger offender: Conservatives or Liberals?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4606
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(4)
Message 91 of 147 (886353)
05-16-2021 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
05-15-2021 8:30 PM


Re: The New Boss?
My only point where I agree with his side is in the matter of being forced to recognize certain realities (or observations) due to science. I''llnot let science be my thought police.

It's not a matter of science becoming any kind of "thought police" (that's the role of fundamentalists' goal of taking control of American society).

Rather, it's a matter of learning the facts and reality. Willfully ignoring the facts and reality (and making the conscious and deliberate decision to do so) in favor of a fantasy is living in denial. Your "Ben Shapiro" wants homosexuality to be classified as mental illness, which tells us much of what we need to know about him. However, such deliberate denial as you insist on qualifies much more as a sign of mental illness.

I'm reminded of Gary, a friend from church (UU). You remember his story. He was very deeply into being a fundamentalist Christian, living ex-Fundamentalist minister Dan Barker's definition of fundamentalism being "when your theology becomes your psychology." His fantasy world was at odds with contrary evidence and facts that he could not help but encounter every day, so he just blocked them out of his mind and kept his eye blind to reality. But that took a very heavy toll on him, such that finally one day he could no longer deny reality. That led him to apply the Matthew 7:20 Test to his religion which led him to leave that unhealthy religion. Now he feels much more spiritually fulfilled as a "total atheist and complete humanist" than he ever had as a fundamentalist Christian.

Your fantasy that there are only males and females and nothing else is in direct conflict with reality. You want to descend into mental illness by living in denial of reality? That's your own individual choice, but you have absolutely no right to impose your mental illness on others!

One specific case that I recall from a science show about a decade ago was an individual who had been born with female genitalia and so was classified as female and was raised as female. But then with puberty things started going wrong ... or rather failed to go right. I don't quite remember the physical details, but I seem to recall that "she" had no uterus. Genetic examination revealed that "she" had the XY sex chromosomes. So "she" was a "he" who had failed to develop physically.

How would you classify that individual? Male or female? You can't, and yet there "she" still is! How are you going to deny "her" existence or try to explain it away?

The old term is "hermaphrodite", though that's considered stigmatizing and has been replaced by the term intersex:

quote:
Intersex people are individuals born with any of several variations in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones or genitals that, according to the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, "do not fit the typical definitions for male or female bodies". Though the range of atypical sex characteristics may be obvious from birth through the presence of physically ambiguous genitalia, in other instances, these atypical characteristics may go unnoticed, presenting as ambiguous internal reproductive organs or atypical chromosomes that may remain unknown to an individual all of their life.

Sex assignment at birth usually aligns with a child's anatomical sex and phenotype. The number of births where the baby is intersex has been reported to be as low as 0.018% or as high as roughly 1.7%, depending on which conditions are counted as intersex. The number of births with ambiguous genitals is in the range of 0.02% to 0.05%. Other intersex conditions involve atypical chromosomes, gonads, or hormones. Some intersex persons may be assigned and raised as a girl or boy but then identify with another gender later in life, while most continue to identify with their assigned sex.


The article doesn't mention it, but a number of pollutants that permeate our environment mimic estrogen, which cannot help but have an effect. For example, in Canada they have found male beavers with a "male uterus", a condition brought on by those estrogen-like pollutants. Based on that, I would suspect that the number of intersex cases should be increasing especially in genetic males.

 
Whatever worldview one takes on, it should be based on reality and on the facts of that reality and it should be in agreement with reality.

Living in denial of reality is just plain unhealthy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 05-15-2021 8:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4606
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 92 of 147 (886355)
05-16-2021 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by marc9000
05-15-2021 10:41 PM


You say below that you watch Ron Johnson and Tim Scott sometimes on Sunday morning programs. Do you find me to be a lot different than them, and others like them?

Ron Johnson persistently repeats dezinformatsiya (дезинформация), Russian disinformation. What the Kremlin puts out, he repeats. Disinformation was defined in Great Soviet Encyclopedia (1952) as "false information with the intention to deceive public opinion". It is currently being used against the US to destabilize our society with lies about "election irregularities" and to keep us sick and make us even sicker through the sabotaging of our efforts to fight the pandemic by spreading lies about the disease and the vaccines and promoting vaccine reluctance.

Johnson has been identified as the GOP's foremost advancer of conspiracy theories and disinformation. His disinformation claims are so in line with the Kremlin's that an MSNBC commentator always adds before showing a video of Johnson repeating that disinformation "We had to pay extra to translate it from the original Russian."

 
So here you're comparing yourself to Ron Johnson and claiming that you're little different from him.

Is that an admission that you are doing nothing but to repeat phony conspiracy theories and disinformation?

If so, then that is the first truthful statement I have ever seen you make here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by marc9000, posted 05-15-2021 10:41 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by marc9000, posted 05-17-2021 8:25 AM dwise1 has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2177
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.7


(4)
Message 93 of 147 (886357)
05-16-2021 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
05-16-2021 3:26 PM


Re: Reexamining the question
What I challenge is the "special rights" reparations issues that the Left seems to favor

what is your obsession with reparations? you're acting like you think AOC will personally enter your home, pinch your momma on the booty, kick your dog, fuck your lady, dress up like santa and take pictures with your kids.

What is so hard about the idea that people who have been enslaved deserve some form of compensation from the government that allowed and profited from it?


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 3:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 05-17-2021 4:36 AM DrJones* has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(3)
Message 94 of 147 (886358)
05-16-2021 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
05-16-2021 3:26 PM


Re: Reexamining the question
Phat writes:

Only if society can agree on who it should pay and whether such a value amount can even be determined.


Of course. Who suggested otherwise?

But you seem to suggest that the very idea is outrageous and that you will fight it tooth and nail.

Phat writes:

I say just leave things in the past as they were, fair or unfair...quit catering to special interest groups who whine about being treated unfair...


We're not talking about "special interest groups". We're talking about one group of people that was grotesquely mistreated by another group and you're violently opposed to the idea that that mistreatment should be redressed in some way.

Phat writes:

...work to address and redress these issues but dont go out of your way to fine the Caucasian.


It isn't out of our way at all. The Caucasian was responsible for the situation and the descendents of the Caucasian have reaped the benefits of the situation. It seems perfectly appropriate for the Caucasian to pay.

Phat writes:

You will be throwing gasoline on the fire.


But the fire is you. If you can't be part of the solution, at least stop being part of the problem.

Phat writes:

The goal should be to treat everyone equal from today forward.


There's your Trump-thinking again: "I'm ahead, so stop counting."

No. The goal should be to do what's right, even if it means paying past debts.

Phat writes:

You have no right to interfere with my family personally in order to achieve your social justice goals...


Of course we have (society has) that exact right.

Phat writes:

... which please the Jesus of your imagination.


Don't try to pull that crap with me. YOU are the one who has an imaginary Jesus who tells you it's okay to be a selfish right-wing prick.

Phat writes:

I'll not let some liberal feel good committee become my morality police.


You should. You're morality as it stands is pretty sickly. Remember the saying about trees producing fruit.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 3:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 147 (886362)
05-17-2021 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by DrJones*
05-16-2021 4:38 PM


I Realize Im Whining But...
Dr.Jones writes:

What is so hard about the idea that people who have been enslaved deserve some form of compensation from the government that allowed and profited from it?

OK to start with, where does the money come from? Now if you said that we all could vote to take it out of the military budget I may actually go along with that.

But you don't just send a bill to some households. There is no way to accurately measure any compensation that is fair across all cultural definitions.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by DrJones*, posted 05-16-2021 4:38 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 05-17-2021 9:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 101 by DrJones*, posted 05-17-2021 8:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1214
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 96 of 147 (886365)
05-17-2021 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by dwise1
05-16-2021 4:14 PM


Johnson has been identified as the GOP's foremost advancer of conspiracy theories and disinformation. His disinformation claims are so in line with the Kremlin's that an MSNBC commentator always adds before showing a video of Johnson repeating that disinformation "We had to pay extra to translate it from the original Russian."

So here you're comparing yourself to Ron Johnson and claiming that you're little different from him.

I'd guess you could come up with something like this for any Republican.

Do you compare yourself with "The Squad" - AOC, Omar, Tlaib, Pressley?

Squad Members Attack Israel As Hamas Rockets Rain Down, Because of Course


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by dwise1, posted 05-16-2021 4:14 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by anglagard, posted 05-17-2021 1:12 PM marc9000 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 102 by vimesey, posted 05-18-2021 5:10 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 103 by dwise1, posted 05-18-2021 3:05 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 97 of 147 (886367)
05-17-2021 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
05-17-2021 4:36 AM


Re: I Realize Im Whining But...
Phat writes:

But you don't just send a bill to some households.


They already do. It's April 15th in the US, isn't it?

Phat writes:

There is no way to accurately measure any compensation that is fair across all cultural definitions.


How can you know it's impossible if you reject it out of hand with no discussion?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 05-17-2021 4:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4606
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 98 of 147 (886369)
05-17-2021 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
05-16-2021 4:42 AM


Re: Reexamining the question
I fixed your spelling of the word Naive.

In Message 89 I provided the correct spelling of naïve" and explained what a diaeresis is, what its function is and how it works, and how it differs from a hiatus and an Umlaut (both explained in that same link).

However, I neglected to tell you how to write a word with a diaeresis (or with an Umlaut).

For writing normal text, I use the US-International keyboard. You could install any national keyboard you would want (eg, German, French, Spanish), but then you'd have to also deal with the reassignment of some keys. For me, the US International keyboard avoids all those reassignments while adding special characters and the ability to add diacriticals (eg, accent marks, umlauts, tildes).

The various keyboard layouts are presented in Wikipedia's articles QWERTY and AZERTY. Keyboard layout general theory and non-Latin keyboards are discussed in Keyboard layout.

For example, German is QWERTZ in that it switches the "z" and "y" keys (in English's QWERTY "y" is far more common than "z", whereas in German "z" is far more common than "y"). French is AZERTY, reassigning many of the letter keys especially on the left side. And on top of all that, every foreign keyboard reassigns the keys for punctuation marks. In addition, the Spanish and French keyboards have a narrow left shift key and hence has an extra key to the left of the bottom left-most letter ("z" to us, "w" to them) which is how they type the "<" and ">" which are used as "angle brackets" for HTML tags. Since our physical keyboards do not have that physical key there, you cannot use a French or Spanish keyboard to edit HTML (I know, I've tried).

The key to using the US-International keyboard are the dead keys which are also found on other keyboards. Using a dead key, you press the key for the accent mark (eg, " ' ` ~ ^ ) and "nothing happens" until you press the next key. If the next key is something that can take that accent (eg, ñ, é, è, ê, ö) then the accented letter will appear. If the next key would not take that diacritical mark, then the two keys appear as they normally would. The disadvantage of this is that you have to be careful when using quotation marks (eg, "A could easily become Ä by mistake). Also, I believe (but haven't tested) that the list of letters which may be modified by a dead key would depend on the keyboard's language -- eg, a "ë" would not be allowed in German, but may appear in other languages.

Which brings us to another method which is far more flexible and provides you with access to all kinds of symbols: using HTML entity codes. The format is &entity_name;. Another advantage of using entities is being able to write something like that without the forum software trying to interpret it; Instead of & I wrote &amp; and instead of ; I wrote &semi;. The same trick can be used on in HTML to write an HTML tag (> with &gt; and < with &lt;) as well as to post a source code listing that contains less-than or greater-than expressions or pointers (been there!).

That link for entity codes contains a list of entity names. You can also Google on HTML entity codes to find a more readable list. I usually use Character Entity Reference Chart at https://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/charref. You not only get special punctuation marks and math symbols, but also non-Latin letters -- that's how I wrote Greek words in previous posts. And I frequently use non-blanking space (&nbsp;) to insert an extra line as immediately below.

 
Back to how to write "naïve", the "umlaut" entities are patterned as &Xuml; in which the "X" is replaced with the letter to be "umlauted". Therefore, "naïve" would be written as "na&iuml;ve". Simple.

Similarly, acute accents have names like &Xacute; like &eacute; (é), &oacute; (ó). Grave accents have names ike &Xgrave; like &egrave; (è). Hence you can write "élève". And to round out for French, there's &ecirc; (ê) and &ccedil; (ç) -- fête, façade.

You need to keep in mind that entity names are case-sensitive, so &Sigma; (Σ) is different from &sigma; (σ) and &Aring; (Å) is different from &aring; (å -- ångström, skål)

In addition there are sets of more specialized entities that you would need to look up separately. I just found that most of them don't have names, but rather a code number in hexadecimal; eg: ♩ ♬ ♋ ♏ ♕ ♣ ㎨ ॐ ☯ ✡

Go exploring and see what you can find.

Share and enjoy!

Edited by dwise1, : additional entity info

Edited by dwise1, : word choice: "special character" vis-à-vis "punctuation mark"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 05-16-2021 4:42 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2305
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


(1)
Message 99 of 147 (886370)
05-17-2021 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by marc9000
05-17-2021 8:25 AM


MARCXXXX writes:

I'd guess you could come up with something like this for any Republican.

Well, if the shoe fits lardass, then it is the right size- Al Bundy

Republicans used to be the conservative voice, usually misguided but a necessary corrective to some old-school LBJ liberals, now they must kill to survive. The only difference between the Liz Cheney branch and the Donald Trump branch is the identity the sacrificial victim. The Liz Cheney branch feels the victims should not be US citizens while the Trump branch, being an accessory to the murder of 575,000 US citizens, is not as selective concerning the identity of the sacrificial offering.

Of course, the Abrahamic religions forbade human sacrifice in the guise of yup, that Abraham of the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an. A little detail that the modern Republican and centrist Democrats so conveniently like to forget.

Do you compare yourself with "The Squad" - AOC, Omar, Tlaib, Pressley?

Hell Yeah! they are among the few in Congress who understand the message Abraham exemplified. Not only that, AOC and Tlaib are active DSA, just as Mercury and I am, along with the great RAZD, who is sorely missed. We all share a rather uncommon belief, namely that no lives can ever be sacrificed in our names without sanction.

As for you, dirtbag, I know the identity of your false "god," which is known by their words and works -

No that is a fictional version.

This one:

As for the old English saying "for God and Country," looks like you are a traitor to both from my perspective.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by marc9000, posted 05-17-2021 8:25 AM marc9000 has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20101
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


(3)
Message 100 of 147 (886371)
05-17-2021 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by marc9000
05-15-2021 10:41 PM


marc9000 writes:

You said, "we're seeing an increasing hostility and intolerance towards conservative free speech." We're not. If you think we are then provide some examples.

There are those who've researched it, and say we are.

The Free Speech Alliance

The Free Speech Alliance and it's Media Research Center is right wing. They've been described as "propaganda clothed as critique." They, like you, don't seem to know what free speech is. You have the right to say pretty much whatever you want within reasonable limits (libel, threats, etc.), but everyone else isn't obligated to provide you a platform to speak from.

It's interesting that you think The Free Speech Alliance's opinion of themselves is what we should all believe. Here's your quote from their home page:

quote:
In April 2018, the Media Research Center released a groundbreaking report exposing efforts to censor conservatives and silence conservative speech from major online platforms. Our report was so impactful that US Representatives on the House Judiciary Committee cited it four separate times during a July 17, 2018 congressional hearing.

But I could find no evidence of this claim (though I know there are Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee who believe this nonsense). Here's a link to the webpage for the House Judiciary Committee hearing for that day: Facebook, Google and Twitter: Examining the Content Filtering Practices of Social Media Giants | U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee . Knock yourself out finding references to the Media Research Center report at that link. Here's a link to the Media Research Center's report (they seem to have generated only this one report): CENSORED! How Online Media Companies Are Suppressing Conservative Speech

In the past year or so, a well known Cincinnati Reds baseball announcer made a casual comment about a "fag", when he didn't think his mike was hot. He sure lost his job, the gays in the Cincinnati news media had a fit. No such fits used to happen to Robert Byrd, who used the N word publicly more than once.

Why should the Cincinnati Reds organization provide a platform for a gay-hater. Why are you defending even more hate speech by offering the example of Robert Byrd getting away with using the word nigger?

These increased attacks on conservative free speech aren't just very recent (the 2020 election) but have been ramping up during the entire Trump administration. Not only to Trump himself, but to all conservatives.

Not providing a platform for hate speech like you describe, namely calling people fags and niggers, is a good thing. You seem not to even realize how much more obvious you're making the racist and homophobic views of Trump Republicans. You're just digging your hole wider and deeper.

What I think you can legitimately point to over the past few years is increasing hostility toward the views of Trump. For instance, there's a great deal of hostility right now toward his claims that the 2020 presidential election was stolen. That view is Trumpism, not conservatism.

There are a lot of conservatives who aren't real confident in the integrity of the 2020 election.

First, you don't really mean true conservatives. The people you're really talking about are Trump supporters who believe the former president's lies that the election was stolen, despite that he lost 59 of 60 court cases. The one court case he won was to allow observers to stand closer.

Are Trump supporters confident in the election of all the down ballot Republicans who won? Have they figured out yet how, other than by magic, votes for down ballot Republicans were unaffected but votes for Trump on the same ballot were changed to Biden? Why would anyone having the power to change votes change them only for the presidential race?

"Stolen" is a harsh word, but these are changing times that our society is still coming to grips with.

I bet you're just hanging on the results of the Maricopa county recount. You probably hope they'll find bamboo content in the ballots while never wondering why the Democrats would print ballots that checked Biden but not other Democratic candidates, and never wondering why the number of ballots very closely agrees with the number of people recorded as checking in to vote at the polls. It must be magic!

The Covid 19 hysteria played no small part in the confusion that was the voting process this time.

Covid-19 hysteria? With nearly 600,000 dead so far, concern about covid-19 is rational, not hysterical. Trump supporters are just inventing reasons why their guy lost because they can't accept that he got fewer votes than the other guy.

The mail-in voting, the early voting, the questions about voter ID, etc.

Trump supporters are only raising questions because their guy lost, not because there's any evidence of problems with mail-in voting, early voting, or voter identification. There have been very few instances of voter fraud uncovered - I heard about only a few, myself, and so far they've all been Republican. Trump supporters believe massive election fraud was committed by Democrats and yet can't find a single instance. But do they think maybe they're wrong? Nope, they just keep looking.

I believe voter fraud is occasionally committed by people from all parts of the political spectrum, but all indications are that it is very rare. The most common way it happens is where a family member has passed away but has their vote cast anyway by another family member. The case of voter fraud reported yesterday was the most interesting I've seen so far. A man murdered his wife, then cast her vote for Trump.

Conservative's lack of confidence in it is really very comparable to the liberal hysteria we heard 4 years ago when it was claimed that Russia interfered with Hillary's victory.

You can't seem to tell the difference between an opinion based on nothing, like that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from Trump, and an opinion based on evidence, like that the Russians interfered in the 2016 presidential election in favor of Trump through social media carried out through their Internet Research Agency. Mueller's report concluded that while there were many contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian officials that they were more fellow travelers than conspirators.

Not as much free speech was silenced that time.

No free speech was silenced then or now. It's all in your head.

No democratic institutions were described in Message 24.

No they were not,...

Then why did you respond to my comment about Trump supporters attacks on democratic institutions by saying, "All those recent institutions that I described in Message 24?" You're not making much sense.

...what was described there was today's Democrat party's serious swerve to the left of liberalism, more towards socialism and communism.

Conservatives have been misusing the term socialism for years. It means state ownership of the means of production. No liberals are advocating socialism. Communism is more extreme than socialism, and no liberals are advocating communism, either.

Liberals are advocating social programs, not socialism or communism.

None of my dozen or so frantic opponents has responded to it.

It was a reply to AZPaul3, and I guess he chose not to respond to it. You appear to be spewing a bunch of nonsense in that message, much like here.

Liberals achieved "the destruction of the second amendment"? Wow! How did I not hear about this?

They've been trying real hard in the past decade or so, and it's one of their few efforts that haven't gotten much traction.

First you claim liberals destroyed the 2nd amendment, and now you claim their efforts to destroy it have been inconsequential. Inconsistent much?

The more Democrats threaten to take them, statistics show that more and more guns are being sold.

Finally, something true, but only a little bit because you should have been referring to gun control, not the 2nd amendment. There's no significant effort by liberals to repeal the 2nd amendment. Yes, whenever some heinous murder or massacre happens, fears of more gun control spark gun sales.

How is it dangerous to set government policy regarding fossil fuels?

The government often doesn't do a good job of predicting unforeseen costs and complications that result from their meddling...etc...

The law of unintended consequences notwithstanding, you sound like you're against government driven improved fuel economy standards as we get deeper and deeper into the climate change crisis.

You're ignoring the point. Rush Limbaugh's lies caused deaths, including possibly his own.

Everybody dies. A lot of us like to make our own decisions concerning how we choose to live.

What about those who decided to go maskless or to smoke because of Rush Limbaugh's life-endangering advice? Did they freely make an informed decision balancing risk and reward, or did they take the advice of someone they trusted but who didn't know what he was talking about?

This can be interpreted two ways, neither of which make sense. The actual cause of Sicknick's death, a surprise to everyone and so fairly big news, was very widely reported, so it makes no sense to say that most people did not hear about this.

Or maybe you mean that some people found out that Sicknick died of natural causes before the coroner released his report. This, too, makes no sense.

What makes sense is that a lot of people heard it trumpeted that he was killed by a Trump supporter with a fire extinguisher, and a lot fewer people heard that he died of natural causes.

You're making stuff up again. Everyone heard Sicknick died from blunt force trauma while trying to hold back Trump supporters trying to enter the Capitol building because that's what the police said. The particular object that caused the blunt force trauma isn't a significant detail, but there was video of a fire extinguisher being thrown at Capitol Police, so of course it was believable.

Until the coroner's report became public no one knew Sicknick actually died of natural causes, so you're also wrong about some people knowing about it beforehand.

And that it was natural causes was such a surprise that it was very widely reported. There probably wasn't a single major news outlet that didn't report this.

But no matter how many spurious complaints you raise about media reporting, the January 6th insurrection incited by Donald Trump still happened. It was not, as one Republican House member recently argued, like a tourist group.

I watch ABC World News Tonight most evenings, no big attention getting correction was made concerning the original false report.

You mean that it wasn't a fire extinguisher? I don't think it makes sense to anyone here that you think the part about the fire extinguisher is significant.

But if you want to claim so minor an inaccuracy is a lie, a big lie in fact, then how do you describe the lie that the 2020 presidential election was stolen? You're using a mote to distract people from a beam.

I believed the reports that conservative poll observers were sometimes denied entrance, and expelled, from polling places at times during the election.

Why do you believe these reports? If they were true don't you think Trump would have lost fewer court cases than the 59 out of 60 that he actually lost?

I live near, and sometimes work in, a medium sized, old U.S. city, where mobs sometimes roam, and I can just imagine which of the two political parties controlled the atmosphere at ALL big mob infested cities in the U.S.

You're living in your own fictional world. To you a mob is probably any protest not sporting Confederate flags.

Republicans have lost the popular vote in the last four presidential elections and seven of the last eight. That's why they're working so hard on voter suppression efforts.

They're working hard on voter ID,...

Conservatives were against the idea of government ID cards until they thought they would help them win elections. They think that in places where they control government they can make obtaining ID cards more difficult for those less likely to vote for them. And since that won't always work they're trying to pass laws allowing the legislature to substitute their own slate of electors or overrule their own secretary of state or election certification boards.

...on getting the election process back to traditional methods, not all this new early voting,...

There was no meaningful voter fraud from early voting, so why the concern?

...mail-in voting,...

There was no meaningful voter fraud from absentee or mail-in-voting, so why the concern?

...ballot harvesting,...

Allowing a 3rd party to collect ballots does seem risky, but it's worth noting that the only significant instance of ballot tampering due to ballot harvesting was perpetrated by Republican McCrae Dowless in North Carolina. It forced the election of several local races to be reheld.

...illegals voting etc....

No evidence of illegals voting in any meaningful numbers has emerged, so why the concern?

But yes, Democrats have the numbers, they get them from the clusters of idle people in big cities. The red/blue maps showing where the red and blue voters are make that clear.

"Idle people in big cities"? Marc, you are harboring a great deal of resentment and distrust.

Gee, that's funny, because when I drive around rural America, which describes most of my state, I see satellite dishes on almost every house.

Gee that's even funnier, because when most people think of rural America, they're not thinking of New Hampshire hahahaha. They're thinking of Mississippi, Alabama, Kansas, Montana, Kentucky, South Dakota.

Most of most states is rural, Marc, and satellite dishes are everywhere in rural America. Your claim that rural America can't watch Fox News because it's on cable was wrong.

Mark, you are both amazing and amazingly consistent. I'm halfway through your post and have yet to find much of anything true. You're able to give voice to obvious outrage but unable to find anything true to support it.

You say below that you watch Ron Johnson and Tim Scott sometimes on Sunday morning programs. Do you find me to be a lot different than them, and others like them?

No, not at all. You're all pretty much delusional. But they're backing Trump's lies about the 2020 election and about racism because they believe it's necessary to holding on to their current offices. Why are you?

How is it untrue? I don't see religion's involvement or relevance in science, plumbing or knitting. Obviously you see it differently, so please explain.

There is ANGER in those who study science,...

Marc, you see negative emotions in everyone who disagrees with you. You can't disagree with anyone without accusing them of being angry or frustrated or sputtering with rage and all the rest. Give it a break.

...this forum alone should make that clear to anybody, partly because they take science far beyond its boundaries, beyond what's testable and falsifiable, and religion gets in its way.

Well, now you're going off-topic, so I'll just say that I think what this forum has made most clear is the vacuity of creationism and intelligent design.

I'm just glad "plumbers" don't have this kind of anger, half of them would be laying around dead, beaten to death with monkey wrenches.

The only person who sounds angry around here (not to mention uninformed and shameless in fabricating arguments) is you. You again made it through an entire post saying almost nothing true.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : No reason given.

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by marc9000, posted 05-15-2021 10:41 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by marc9000, posted 05-19-2021 8:11 AM Percy has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2177
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.7


(3)
Message 101 of 147 (886373)
05-17-2021 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
05-17-2021 4:36 AM


Re: I Realize Im Whining But...
OK to start with, where does the money come from?

taxes, start going after those billionaires and companies that don't pay taxes.

But you don't just send a bill to some households. There is no way to accurately measure any compensation that is fair across all cultural definitions.

so your answer is it's hard to make a positive change so we shouldn't do it. That's to expected of you, after all didn't Jesus himself when confronted with the problem of the loaves and fishes say "fuck no, that's too hard".

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 05-17-2021 4:36 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1245
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 102 of 147 (886374)
05-18-2021 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by marc9000
05-17-2021 8:25 AM


This is very typical Republican behaviour - similar to their response to BLM and anger at minority mistreatment.

As long as the Palestinians just keep quiet and accept their awful treatment at the hands of the Israeli state, Republicans will keep quiet. As soon as the Palestinians have had enough and fight back, Republicans will call them terrorists and pin the blame on them.

Here is Amnesty International's report of Israel's record in 2020.

Everything you need to know about human rights in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories

Tell me marc, how long do you expect Palestinians to quietly sit there and take this ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by marc9000, posted 05-17-2021 8:25 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4606
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 103 of 147 (886385)
05-18-2021 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by marc9000
05-17-2021 8:25 AM


DWise1 writes:

Johnson has been identified as the GOP's foremost advancer of conspiracy theories and disinformation. His disinformation claims are so in line with the Kremlin's that an MSNBC commentator always adds before showing a video of Johnson repeating that disinformation "We had to pay extra to translate it from the original Russian."

So here you're comparing yourself to Ron Johnson and claiming that you're little different from him.


I'd guess you could come up with something like this for any Republican.

Do you compare yourself with "The Squad" - AOC, Omar, Tlaib, Pressley?

I must have hit a nerve there, gotten far too close to the truth, because you immediately went for the Trumpian trick of deflect and divert.

No, I do not compare myself with "The Squad", where you were comparing yourself to Ron Johnson, or at least calling for us to make that comparison.

Well, you are like Ron Johnson in that you continually spout dezinformatsiya (дезинформация), Russian disinformation, along with so much other conspiracy theory nonsense. And no amount of deflection and diversion will change that, so please stop trying to change the subject.

We know that Ron Johnson, like Rudy Giuliani, had been in contact with a known Russian agent (though a different one than Rudy). Had he been turned? Which part of MICE was used?

Was it Money? That would most definitely have been a major factor in turning Trump, since there's hardly anything that he loves more than money besides getting his fragile ego fluffed all the time. According to my annual counter-intelligence and security GMTs (General Military Training), most Americans who betray their country do so for money. Is that what turned you?

Was it Ideology? We know that Trump has none. We also know that the GOP has none anymore ever since embracing Trumpism and Q-Anon BS to become the current GQP. And the GOP rank-and-file who might still have some remnants of the old ideology are either burying their heads in the sand or jumping ship and leaving the party.

I won't even consider Compromise or Coersion since they're all so gleeful in committing their treason.

Ego could be another matter, since that would be a high motivator for Trump. What about you? Are you that sick of a puppy too?

If anything, you would have been recruited through the Ideology of Trumpism, much the same as Trump's "sheeple" whom he repeatedly fleeces out of their money. You actually believe the lies that he and his enablers in the GQP feed you. I doubt very much that the Russians are using you directly, not even as a "useful idiot", because you are too amateurish and ineffective for them to consider you to be "useful."

 
BTW, the only reason that most "true Christians" support Israel is because they fully expect the existence of Israel to trigger World War III which will lead to their Christ's Return. They want to create the End of the World as a self-fulfilling prophesy. The very last thing that they would ever want would be peace in the Middle East, so they will do whatever it takes to keep such peace from ever happening.

In sharp contrast, we normals do want to bring about peace in the Middle East along with the existence of Israel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by marc9000, posted 05-17-2021 8:25 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4606
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 104 of 147 (886387)
05-18-2021 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by marc9000
05-15-2021 10:41 PM


The mail-in voting, the early voting, the questions about voter ID, etc.

We've been using mail-in voting for decades. It works very well, including our ability to validate each ballot. For that matter, the groups who have traditionally used it the most usually vote Republican. The only reason Republicans are squacking about it now is because of Trump's totally unfounded complaints that they weren't secure. How are they supposed to not be secure? Just exactly what is supposed to be wrong about them ... besides negating Republican attempts to suppress the vote?

Same thing with early voting. What's supposed to be the problem with that? None, except it negates the Republican vote suppression tricks of limiting voter access to the polls in key areas they want to suppress.

An example of Republicans trying to still suppress the vote was Texas governor's limiting of one drop box per county, severely limiting access to the polls for about 4 million voters in Harris County (Houston). Fortunately, the officials running the election just ignored the governor's order. But even if they hadn't, early voting would still have allowed voters to find time to get to that one drop box which couldn't happen in a non-early voting election day of about 13 hours. And just how was the governor's limit supposed to have "preserved the purity of the ballot box" outside of that wording's historic connection to Jim Crow laws to keep blacks from voting?

Seriously, please describe in sufficient detail what you think is wrong with mail-in and early voting. And how are measures against them supposed to ensure the integrity of the ballot outside of keeping "the wrong people" from voting?

Voter ID is even worse. Voter fraud is extremely low, so it's a "solution" without a problem to solve. Just exactly what "problem" is an ID supposed to solve? As long as you're registered to vote, that should be enough. In our in-person voting procedure, you need to be in the printouts to be able to vote and you sign your line of the printouts. If you try to pose as somebody else, then that can only work if that other person is registered -- there's no way that any voter ID could keep extra ballots from entering the system (and certainly not the "3 million illegals casting ballots" that Trump claimed in the 2016 election. When that other person you posed as comes in and votes, then that will flag you for investigation of voter fraud -- there were 16 cases of voter fraud in this last election and almost all of them were for Trump.

While voter fraud is almost non-existent, election fraud is widely practiced by the Republicans. And now Republican state legislatures are busy passing election laws to deepen that election fraud, even to the point of laws which would give state legislatures the power to arbitrarily overturn the elections they don't like and put their choice into office. Now that is blatantly Stalinism (Stalin quoted as saying: "It does not matter who votes. What matters is who counts those votes.").

What happened leading up to the 2016 election was that Trump was repeatedly complaining that the election was rigged and urged his followers to rise up in revolt when he lost. Well, he didn't. Then leading up to the 2020 election he was doing the same thing, claiming that if he lost then the election would have been rigged and urging his followers to rise up in revolt in that case -- and when he did lose, he went on a rally tour to whip his followers into a frenzy that led to the 06 Jan Insurrection.

The only reason why Trump's followers believe the stupid lies about voter and election fraud is because that's what Trump has been telling them and they're too stupid to realize that he's just lying to them yet again. Why don't they trust mail-in ballots? Because Trump told that to not trust them.

And all the lies about ballots mysteriously appearing at the end of Election Day. That's because the Republicans would not allow early and mail-in ballots to be processed and counted as they came in, but rather they had to be held at a secure location until the polls closed on Election Day at which point they were to be trucked in for processing. The Republicans set that up and then had the audacity to cry "foul" when what they engineered to happen did happen. That includes the "Red Mirage" in which the results of the in-person votes, anticipated to be mostly Republican, would show Republicans ahead that evening, but then would lose to the predominantly-Democratic early and mail-in ballots. And it took days for all those ballots to be processed -- California, Oregon, and Washington all use mail-in ballots and all were called at almost the very instant that the polls closed on Election Day because they allowed those ballots to be processed as they came in.

BTW, that also shows why, when you engage in a conspiracy with Trump, that you never tell Trump the plan. Because Trump is a big blabbermouth and he will reveal the entire plan to the world. That "Red Mirage" plan? Trump blabbed it. At least we know that our government doesn't have aliens or UFOs, because if we did then Trump would have blabbed it to the world.

Conservative's lack of confidence in it is really very comparable to the liberal hysteria we heard 4 years ago when it was claimed that Russia interfered with Hillary's victory.

Actually, Russia did interfere with the 2016 election. Mueller found overwhelming evidence of massive collusion between the Trump Campaign and Russia. He just couldn't gather evidence of conspiracy, but that was mainly because of multiple instances of obstruction of justice by Trump (ten of which are enumerated and described in the report). And Trump could still be charged with those multiple counts of obstruction of justice now that he no longer has cover from that OLC memo.

Not as much free speech was silenced that time.

All this fake yapping that "conservative voices are being silenced" reminds me of Lisa Kudrow's parody of Trump's last press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, in Netflix' mockumentary, Death to 2020:

Even though it's satire, we repeatedly see Republicans reading from that exact script in their fake cries of "they're silencing us!"

[details of the cause of Sicknick's death being corrected by the press, but you still bitch about it ]

Raising fake issues about one single Capitol policeman's death does not change the facts. About 150 policemen sustained injuries from the violent mob of traitorous Trump supporters as they stormed the Capitol. A number of those policemen were indeed struck by objects such as fire extinguishers (wielded by a former or off-duty fireman, as I recall), some of them on or about the head. We all saw the videos of that! Well, maybe viewers of FOX didn't, since I would doubt that FOX would have carried the videos, not wanting their viewers to see the truth.

And now we have Republicans in Congress trying to deny that the Insurrection even happened. Like Congressman Andrew Clyde (R-GA) who claims that it was all peaceful and the insurrectionists acted no differently than any tour group on any normal day. And then there are the photos of Clyde in the house chamber helping to barricade the door against those "peaceful tourists" while shitting himself in fear of his life at the hands of those "peaceful tourists".

The Republicans in Congress have a very real reason to hinder and try to prevent in investigation of that insurrectionist riot: they are implicated up to their congressional lapel pins. As the conspiracies around that riot are uncovered, they know that many of them will be found to have been co-conspirators. Like the ones who sponsored groups of rioters on reconnaissance tours of the Capitol building in the preceding days. There are a lot more shoes going to drop.

I believed the reports that conservative poll observers were sometimes denied entrance, and expelled, from polling places at times during the election.

The reports I heard were of Trumpists being urged to go to polling places and demand to be allowed in as "observers." Basically, the purpose for that was to disrupt the process and to intimidate the voters, both of which are illegal in every state I can think of. I seem to also recall some wanting to bring in firearms.

Every state has its own election laws which do include the regulation of poll watchers/observers. There are ways to register as a poll observer and there are requirements for how they are to conduct themselves, including conduct with is prohibited. From what I heard, those "poll observers" did not conform to their states' laws but rather were acting as renegades.

If you recall differently, then do please provide actual cases that we can research and determine the truth about. Please do not rely on your usual Trumpist propaganda rags.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by marc9000, posted 05-15-2021 10:41 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1214
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 105 of 147 (886393)
05-19-2021 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Percy
05-17-2021 4:13 PM


The Free Speech Alliance and it's Media Research Center is right wing. They've been described as "propaganda clothed as critique."

They began that way, there's no secret about who they are, they've remained consistent. The NY Times is now described as "chief cheerleader for the left". They did not begin that way, and there's still some belief among the public that they're still a legitimate news source. But that belief is fading fast.

But I could find no evidence of this claim (though I know there are Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee who believe this nonsense). Here's a link to the webpage for the House Judiciary Committee hearing for that day: Facebook, Google and Twitter: Examining the Content Filtering Practices of Social Media Giants | U.S. House of Representatives Judiciary Committee . Knock yourself out finding references to the Media Research Center report at that link.

That claim fits what I see going on around me. I don't need to spend hours looking for something you can't find, only to have you dismiss it in 5 seconds. I believe what the MRC says, you believe what the NY Times says. That's where we are.

Why should the Cincinnati Reds organization provide a platform for a gay-hater.

One flippant word in private does not indicate hate. Sheesh.

Why are you defending even more hate speech by offering the example of Robert Byrd getting away with using the word nigger?

The term is "double standard". Democrats get away with hate speech, Republicans do not. Rashida Tlaib screams "impeach the mo frigga" very intentionally, very publicly, and pays no price at all.

Not providing a platform for hate speech like you describe, namely calling people fags and niggers, is a good thing. You seem not to even realize how much more obvious you're making the racist and homophobic views of Trump Republicans. You're just digging your hole wider and deeper.

"Racist and homophobic" - I guess no terms have been coined to describe the Trump hate and white people hate that people like Tlaib regularly display. Probably because it's not thought necessary, not taken seriously. But some of us think it's time to start taking it seriously.

First, you don't really mean true conservatives. The people you're really talking about are Trump supporters who believe the former president's lies that the election was stolen, despite that he lost 59 of 60 court cases. The one court case he won was to allow observers to stand closer.

I really do mean true conservatives, because close to half of the country liked the job he did as president, his somewhat childish reactions to the election were a minor detail. His somewhat regretable behavior about the election were understandable for most of them, his dread of what Biden's handlers were going to do to this country stirred up some understandable panic. The Hamas terrorist group has no fear of the U.S. now, oil prices going up, an out-of-control southern border. Unemployment, inflation, able bodied people doing nothing, it's all happening fast.

Are Trump supporters confident in the election of all the down ballot Republicans who won? Have they figured out yet how, other than by magic, votes for down ballot Republicans were unaffected but votes for Trump on the same ballot were changed to Biden? Why would anyone having the power to change votes change them only for the presidential race?

Hahahaha, because the presidential race was high profile, it's where all the attention and corruption was!

Covid-19 hysteria? With nearly 600,000 dead so far, concern about covid-19 is rational, not hysterical.

Trump was blamed for it, dances were done by the NY Times to imply that he was somehow responsible for it, or that his actions in dealing with it were inadequate. All lies of course. Recently, the Colonial pipeline company paid millions in ransom to Russian hackers to restore the operation of their pipeline. No mention of Biden in any of the reports. If that had happened during the Trump administration, do you think his name would be mentioned? Impeachment articles would be drawn up.

It was a reply to AZPaul3, and I guess he chose not to respond to it. You appear to be spewing a bunch of nonsense in that message, much like here.

So you don't believe the Democrat party has changed much in the last 60 years?

There's no significant effort by liberals to repeal the 2nd amendment.

They could easily make that position official, but they never do. Just incremental steps, "a step in the right direction" as they describe more and more gun control steps. And the "right direction" is???

Most of most states is rural, Marc, and satellite dishes are everywhere in rural America. Your claim that rural America can't watch Fox News because it's on cable was wrong.

Wasn't it you 8 or 9 months ago telling me that rural America was getting poorer and poorer because the government wasn't giving them enough free stuff? Now suddenly they can all afford premium television and internet, even though it's prices keep going up and up? Biden must be a miracle worker!

No, not at all. You're all pretty much delusional. But they're backing Trump's lies about the 2020 election and about racism because they believe it's necessary to holding on to their current offices. Why are you?

Because during the Trump administration, we had a southern border that was getting under control. We had terrorist groups in the middle east that were afraid to try him. We had low unemployment, low inflation, a promising economy, it goes on and on.

Marc, you see negative emotions in everyone who disagrees with you. You can't disagree with anyone without accusing them of being angry or frustrated or sputtering with rage and all the rest. Give it a break.

The only person who sounds angry around here (not to mention uninformed and shameless in fabricating arguments) is you. You again made it through an entire post saying almost nothing true.

What criteria do you use to determine anger? I largely go by name calling - I never call names, and yet I'm on the receiving end of name calling and insults here all the time. I'm wrong about that right? I'm just like Trump, it doesn't matter what I say, it's automatically wrong because I say it?

That's what makes this place fun, but it's also a little sad. But to your tremendous relief, I'm now done in this thread, so you and your helpers can have the last word that you crave. I'd like to explore a little more in the "Is Science Atheism" thread, maybe in the climate change thread, then I'll be gone again for 6 months or a year, just maybe checking in every once in a while for amusement.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Percy, posted 05-17-2021 4:13 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 05-19-2021 11:31 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 133 by Percy, posted 05-23-2021 9:04 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
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