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Author Topic:   Is science atheism?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 10 of 126 (886163)
05-09-2021 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by AZPaul3
05-09-2021 3:51 AM


Re: Flee The Scourge, Oh Holy Soul!
Your humor is wry and silly! Everyone knows that science isn't atheism. Nor is the earth young. End of story.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2021 3:51 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 11 of 126 (886164)
05-09-2021 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Raphael
05-07-2021 9:22 PM


Raphael writes:

I do not agree science in and of itself is atheism. I do think some anti-theist scientists would like it to be..

Agreed. There are a few demons operating in these anti-theists. The only reason AZPaul gets off the hook is due to his charming sense of humor and his avoidance of hating us. He just needs a shot of Holy Water every morning and the sickness should clear up. Of course to be fair, science isnt theistic either, so we are awaiting some alternative explanations for alleged supernatural occurrences and healing events. It wont hurt our faith, but it will clear up excessive woo withing the religious community. All are welcome at the table.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Raphael, posted 05-07-2021 9:22 PM Raphael has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-09-2021 6:58 AM Phat has responded
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 05-09-2021 11:01 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 15 of 126 (886172)
05-09-2021 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
05-09-2021 6:58 AM


Another example of Christian Cop-outs.

How pathetic.

Just because you've never seen it in front of your face gives you no right to pass judgement on another mans experiences.
The explanation is human imagination.
I was imagining nothing. But if course according to you I surely must have been, since there is "no evidence". You conclude without ever having been present. You never think that any other group of people can think except evidence based skeptics...who if found in chuch at all, are never in anything but a dead church full of rituals. (And Priests with funny hats and garments,) You assume based on scientific evidence to begin with. Thats why I can never talk with you about such stuff.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-09-2021 6:58 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-09-2021 4:37 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 16 of 126 (886173)
05-09-2021 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
05-09-2021 11:01 AM


The Correct Term is Oppression, not Possession.
No more rude than it is for you to mock my capability to judge something as real or fake. I reject 90% of what I see out there. Only when I experience it first hand do I even attempt to explain it. And just because my explanation isn't outright rejection based on known evidence makes my assessment no less valid than yours.

One key giveaway regarding oppression is an innate hatred of Jesus Christ or disdain for His necessity.An atheist wouldn't care any more than they would if a Leprechaun were being critiqued. An anti theist sees the very idea of God incarnate as laughable yet also a very real threat to social progress.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 05-09-2021 11:01 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 05-09-2021 9:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 18 of 126 (886186)
05-09-2021 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
05-09-2021 4:37 PM


One does not require objective evidence before they believe or conclude.

If so, there would be zero believers.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 05-09-2021 4:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 05-09-2021 5:47 PM Phat has responded
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2021 9:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 20 of 126 (886190)
05-09-2021 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
05-09-2021 5:47 PM


Science Rejects The Supernatural Pending
OK I suppose I can agree with that. If a supernatural realm were to actually exist, however...there would never be a way to prove it. And the Bible does mention such events several times. Thus it is not entirely a product of carny sideshows...though the majority of it likely is.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 05-09-2021 5:47 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by dwise1, posted 05-11-2021 3:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 42 of 126 (886469)
05-21-2021 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tangle
05-21-2021 3:06 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
tangle writes:

I wonder where the nearest structure for the worship of atheism is?

Though you will argue that atheism is not a religion nor an object of worship, humanists are in love with the idea that we determine our destiny and that the collective majority can and will rule. The facts are that we will continue handing out stimulus checks and we will likely end up attempting to inflate our way out of the national debt. Critics claim that the wealthy should and will be taxed for this bill but reality shows me that it is the working class who will feel the sting. A mandatory alms for the poor (who are the only ones with no bill) and as usual the wealthy will skip out of it somehow....or it will be a manageable tax for them.

Theism and Money are closely related. And ringo will use the words of Jesus as an excuse why we should all become poorer.

You liberals and your progressive Christianity are a scam. I'll never be too greedy to voluntarily donate but I'll be damned if I let government send me the tithing bill.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2021 3:06 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 05-21-2021 11:38 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 51 by dwise1, posted 05-21-2021 4:56 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 05-22-2021 12:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 84 by Stile, posted 06-06-2021 10:09 AM Phat has responded
 Message 106 by Aussie, posted 06-16-2021 1:34 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 43 of 126 (886470)
05-21-2021 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by anglagard
05-21-2021 4:54 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
You and I dont see eye to eye.
I find this phenomena quite entertaining as I am in the USA because it shows that if the Evangelicals get their way and turn the nation into a Fundamentalist dictatorship, human beings will reject you to the point of Atheism, which I consider a vast improvement over Nazism. So, fundies, evangelicals, holy-rollers, 7ths, keep recruiting others to my cause, which means your nonexistence.
If the progressives(globalists) get their way, all money will be under the control of state eyes and there will be no way to freely and individually get ahead. Under the guise of progressive altruistic humanism, we will all get stuck with a mandatory bill. And yet they keep handing out stimulus checks. Dont they know whose money they are playing with?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by anglagard, posted 05-21-2021 4:54 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2021 11:30 AM Phat has responded
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 05-21-2021 4:27 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 44 of 126 (886471)
05-21-2021 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by marc9000
05-19-2021 9:17 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
marc9000 writes:

You're not acknowledging the existence of Jar and Phat.

I dont know about jar but I consider myself a Cosmological Creationist. Lets just say I do not believe in Biblicl Creationism because they play with facts and believe unbelievable things simply because the Bible says so.

That being said, I do believe in the trinity, Jesus as Gods character to and for humanity, and a Creator of all seen and unseen who in fact does care about us more than Uranus or Pond Scum. God is not simply some Biodiversity superdude.

jar of course has his own universe of theories.

Because there really is non-creation Christianity.
To be more specific, there are many Christians who do not believe in the doctrines of creationsim. We do, however believe in a Creator Centric Christianity.
The *other* guys believe in a progressive, human-centric Christianity.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by marc9000, posted 05-19-2021 9:17 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 47 of 126 (886475)
05-21-2021 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by PaulK
05-21-2021 11:30 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Sorry. I get carried away.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2021 11:30 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by nwr, posted 05-21-2021 3:42 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 50 by anglagard, posted 05-21-2021 4:40 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 67 of 126 (886525)
05-23-2021 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tangle
05-23-2021 4:07 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Tangle writes:

They think that because they can't imagine what a non-belief is. Which is odd because, with the exception of the one god they believe in, they have non-beliefs in all other gods and a zillion other things too. Leprechauns being only one them; usually. You'd think they'd be able to get it, but they just can't.

We call it Trinitarian Monotheism. We believe in One God. period. Not a zillion others. You are correct in that you guys believe in One God less than we do. In other words zip. zero nada.
Atheists are not a collective with a creed, we're just people that are occasionally reminded that there are mad people around us that believe in weird crap. This does NOT mean we have a faith in non-belief. We just don't think about it. It's a non-thing, an absence, a nothing.
Bingo.
You have to believe in belief so you think we do to.
We believe in a Creator greater than ourselves. You don't. You never even think about it. But then we dont fully understand you any more than you do us.
You have to believe in belief so you think we do to.
If you wanna put it like that. I would say that for us, God existing is a default. You cant fathom such thought. I would change your sentence though.

You have to believe in belief A Creator of all seen and unseen known through Jesus Christ so you think we do too.
You have argued before about why God supposedly chose us and not you. My response? You dont even think about it. Evidently you are meant to be the way you are. As are we. Live and let live.

We do find it puzzling why you dont even think about what we consider the most important belief in our lives. You channel that energy other ways. Imagination. Creativity. Snuggle Love. Sipping wine looking at a sunset.You imagine us as authoritarian despots eager to own the world.

We imagine you as unknowing idolators...basking in the joy of the creation yet not ever considering who made it. You may argue that science shows *us* exactly how it was made--no Creator necessary.

We probably are not our own best advertisement. Nor His.

Edited by Phat, : fixed awkward points


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2021 4:07 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2021 6:36 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 69 of 126 (886527)
05-23-2021 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
05-23-2021 6:36 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Tangle writes:

Fine, be puzzled about it, just don't say dumb thing like atheism is a faith or a belief.

I would say that atheism is an observation. There is no room for belief as you are never moved by feelings but only facts. Verifiable reality.

The question I ask myself is why. Why is God not plainly visible to everybody? Why do I care so much about Him being real to you? How delusional could I be?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2021 6:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2021 8:40 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 05-23-2021 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 112 by Aussie, posted 06-18-2021 11:47 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 85 of 126 (886774)
06-06-2021 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Stile
06-06-2021 10:09 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
We have.

And we see it differently. I perceive or feel that I DO have another choice.

I can pray and talk with God and not feel the slightest bit weird or fantasy-driven about it. I can agree with you that there is no way to objectively prove it to you. I can readily identify with other believers, who can all do it and can all agree that it works. We can describe what God "says" or imparts into us with no dissonance whatsoever.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Stile, posted 06-06-2021 10:09 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 06-06-2021 9:39 PM Phat has responded
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 06-09-2021 12:02 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 88 of 126 (886778)
06-07-2021 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
06-06-2021 9:39 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Mormons, Pastafarians, etc. can pray and talk with their gods and you consider them weird and fantasy-driven.
I am a Monotheist. I have a dissonance with their gods. Not them.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 06-06-2021 9:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 06-07-2021 12:10 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 90 of 126 (886789)
06-07-2021 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
06-07-2021 12:10 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
ringo writes:

That's exactly the point. You do consider "other" gods weird and fantasy-driven...

Of course I do. You act as if relativism is the norm. It isn't.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 06-07-2021 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by kjsimons, posted 06-07-2021 7:59 PM Phat has responded
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 06-08-2021 12:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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