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Author Topic:   Is science atheism?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8200
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 46 of 126 (886473)
05-21-2021 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
05-21-2021 11:10 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

Though you will argue that atheism is not a religion nor an object of worship,

There's no argument, atheism is not a religion - by definition.

humanists are in love with the idea that we determine our destiny and that the collective majority can and will rule.

You're confusing humanism with democracy. I thought that even you supported democracy?

The facts are that we will continue handing out stimulus checks and we will likely end up attempting to inflate our way out of the national debt. Critics claim that the wealthy should and will be taxed for this bill but reality shows me that it is the working class who will feel the sting. A mandatory alms for the poor (who are the only ones with no bill) and as usual the wealthy will skip out of it somehow....or it will be a manageable tax for them.

What's that got to do with atheism?

Theism and Money are closely related.

Oh you bet. the RC church is one of the wealthiest organisations on the planet. They all want your money. Ironic really.

And ringo will use the words of Jesus as an excuse why we should all become poorer.

The words of Jesus are plain. You ignore them because you're not a believer.

You liberals and your progressive Christianity are a scam. I'll never be too greedy to voluntarily donate but I'll be damned if I let government send me the tithing bill.

Wow.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 05-21-2021 11:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15602
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 126 (886475)
05-21-2021 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by PaulK
05-21-2021 11:30 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Sorry. I get carried away.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2021 11:30 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by nwr, posted 05-21-2021 3:42 PM Phat has not yet responded
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5791
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


(3)
Message 48 of 126 (886476)
05-21-2021 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
05-21-2021 2:57 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
I get carried away.

You sure did.

If you ever manage to find your way back to reality, you might learn that the liberals are not out to get you. Your cult has been feeding you a bunch of ridiculous nonsense, and you have been swallowing it hook, line and sinker.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5999
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 49 of 126 (886481)
05-21-2021 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
05-21-2021 11:14 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Dont they know whose money they are playing with?

Oh no, Phat, please.

Haven't you realized yet that all income belongs to the government?

You may have earned it, but have you ever noticed all those numbers in columns on your paystub?

That's the government telling you how much of their income they will allow you to keep.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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 Message 43 by Phat, posted 05-21-2021 11:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2329
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 50 of 126 (886482)
05-21-2021 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
05-21-2021 2:57 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

Sorry. I get carried away.

My advice is for you to deal with any cognitive management issues you may have prior to posting any material related to Christianity to jar, Ringo, NWR, and I without having read the entire Bible, as is obvious we have done.

I figure by 6/21/21 if you don't complete your mission to read the Gospel According to Matthew, then I will post everything Jesus said that condemns your soul to hell (for now).


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 4702
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 51 of 126 (886483)
05-21-2021 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
05-21-2021 11:10 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Though you will argue that atheism is not a religion nor an object of worship,
...

Well, atheism is not a religion. To define it as such would require stretching the definition of "religion" to the breaking point by classifying any position regarding religion as a religion in itself. It doesn't make any sense.

Also, you are committing the all too common theist fallacy of attributing your own attitudes to others. I forget which of Piaget's stages of development and when young children grow out of it (I'm pretty sure it's at a pre-K age). I also forget what it's called (it's only been 40 years since I had that class), but it's where the child doesn't realize that other people are different from themselves mainly in terms of what they think and what they know (test: the child sees an adult hide a toy inside a box and then another adult enters the room looking for that toy. The child cannot understand why the second adult doesn't know what she knows).

I guess I should also include Dan Barker's statement: "Fundamentalism is where your theology becomes your psychology." He had been raised a fundamentalist and became a fundamentalist minister after God personally called him to it. He grew up hearing his mother singing in tongues while doing the housework. BTW, Dan Barker is now known as "America's Leading Atheist."

I assume that you are also aware that Christians of a certain persuasion (ie, fundamentalist types, though they shun their fellow fundamentalist groups ("Please do not confuse me with those heretics!") ) have their own special counselors. Christian counselors use many of the same techniques as counselors for normals, but those "true Christians" require that everything be about their god so Christian counseling has to always twist itself to use "God" to motivate the patient. During the divorce, I had friends in Rick Warren's megachurch's singles ministry (I had been recruited to participate in their dance classes which were imbalanced at 100 women and only 50 men -- the church pastors kept freaking out over having dancing there (Joke: "Why do Baptists oppose people having sex while standing up? Because they're afraid it might lead to dancing") ). They talked me into attending their DivorceCare program which turned out to be worse than useless ("You can never recover from divorce. Only Jesus can cure you."). Another local megachurch hosted weekly presentations by two Christian counselors. They used most of the same techniques as normals' counselors (eg, setting boundaries, avoid associating with people who would lead you astray) and would even make a lot of sense, but then at the end they would always twist it around to "God" and destroy their own argument (eg, "Why should you do what you need to be healthy and happy? Because that's what Jesus wants for you." (they actually literally said that)).

You are attributing your own ideas and attitudes to others. You're all about worshipping and feel driven to worship, so you cannot understand when others are not driven to worship anything. So like so many other theists who have come before you over the decades, you assume that atheists also worship and then you have to dream up things to accuse them of worshipping. All while atheists actually do not feel any compulsion nor desire to worship anything. You cannot comprehend anyone thinking differently than you.

"True Christians" have the same problem misunderstanding education. The goal of education is that the students understand the subject matter, not for them to be compelled to believe those ideas. "True Christians" cannot understand that because all of their "education" is in the form of indoctrination which requires the student to believe in what you're indoctrinating them in. My favorite personal counter example was the US Air Force teaching us NCOs Marxism and Communism not for the purpose of turning us in commie Marxists as "true Christians" would say, but rather to help us know our enemy (this was in 1982 during the Cold War -- yes, I am a veteran Cold Warrior). The most striking example of that "true Christian" misunderstanding of education was when I told a creationist that he needed to correct his gross misunderstanding of evolution by studying it and learning the actual science. He reacted very strongly against that and refused to learn evolution because "that would require me to believe in evolution!".

Please do not foist your foibles upon us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 05-21-2021 11:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Raphael, posted 05-21-2021 10:21 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 171
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 52 of 126 (886486)
05-21-2021 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by dwise1
05-21-2021 4:56 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Final exams have concluded and I find myself climbing out of my cavern back into the real world , and by "real world" of course, I actually mean EvC. What else is there?

@Dwise1 we haven't really interacted here before. I tend to fall on the theistic side of things (sort of), though...I like to think I'm a hard one to pin down . Anyway. Lets go!

dwise1 writes:

Well, atheism is not a religion. To define it as such would require stretching the definition of "religion" to the breaking point by classifying any position regarding religion as a religion in itself. It doesn't make any sense.

Wow, ...there's a lot going on here. Seems like you have experienced a lot man. Though not even 35, I've also experienced divorce....its something I'd never wish upon anyone. Sorry your experience with a church and Christians during that time sucked and you did not feel valued. We are almost always our own worst enemy.

That said, I just wanted to respond to this statement. While I agree atheism is not a religion, it is a belief and sometimes even a set of beliefs depending what brand of atheism you subscribe to.

Here's a test demonstrating this: If you were on an abandoned island and you never heard of any religion, would the position you come to naturally be atheism?

If yes; how would you test or prove such a thing? In reality, you cannot and couldn't, therefore this would merely be a faith decision on your part. The answer any serious scientist would come to then, would be agnosticism, or at least agnostic atheism (though still debatable).

If no; this makes far more sense, and seems more likely. For why believe a negative belief when nobody is advocating for the positive form of the same belief? In this case, theism or atheism would be irrelevant and any serious scientist would also probably land in a place of agnosticism.

In conclusion, this (admittedly non-scholarly, ) model demonstrates the issue I have with atheism. It's a belief stance. Nobody growing up in a space where theism is absent becomes an atheist, why would they? To me, atheism is just as arrogant as fundamentalist religion or dogmatic scientism, and I have the same issues with all three. What objective knower of truth confirmed to you that your belief is true? We have no way of knowing what percentage of knowable information we know about the universe, so to make such a definitive claim is wild to me.

Anyway, just some thoughts! Much love bro,

- Raph

Edited by Raphael, : Spelling/grammar and some final things

Edited by Raphael, : one more thing, haha


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by dwise1, posted 05-21-2021 4:56 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by nwr, posted 05-21-2021 10:53 PM Raphael has responded
 Message 54 by PaulK, posted 05-22-2021 2:13 AM Raphael has responded
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 05-22-2021 1:07 PM Raphael has responded
 Message 74 by dwise1, posted 05-23-2021 4:37 PM Raphael has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5791
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 53 of 126 (886488)
05-21-2021 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Raphael
05-21-2021 10:21 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
While I agree atheism is not a religion, it is a belief and sometimes even a set of beliefs depending what brand of atheism you subscribe to.

No, it isn't a belief.

If you were on an abandoned island and you never heard of any religion, would the position you come to naturally be atheism?

Perhaps not. Atheism is a rejection of particular kinds of belief. And if you have never heard of them, then there isn't anything to reject.

In conclusion, this (admittedly non-scholarly, ) model demonstrates the issue I have with atheism. It's a belief stance.

No, it isn't.

I usually call myself agnostic or non-religious to avoid that kind of misunderstanding. But I have no particular belief stance with respect to religion. I have not ruled out the possibility that there's a god, but I also have not ruled it in because there's no persuasive evidence. So I remain neutral.

What belief stance do you take me as having?


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Raphael, posted 05-21-2021 10:21 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Raphael, posted 05-22-2021 9:06 PM nwr has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16977
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 54 of 126 (886490)
05-22-2021 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Raphael
05-21-2021 10:21 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
quote:
Here's a test demonstrating this: If you were on an abandoned island and you never heard of any religion, would the position you come to naturally be atheism?

Arguably yes. You wouldn’t necessarily make up a God and start believing in it. You wouldn’t necessarily take up the position that there might be some sort of God.

So I’d argue that if the idea wasn’t considered your position would effectively be atheism.

quote:
If yes; how would you test or prove such a thing? In reality, you cannot and couldn't, therefore this would merely be a faith decision on your part. The answer any serious scientist would come to then, would be agnosticism, or at least agnostic atheism (though still debatable).

I’d argue that the scientific default would be non-existence. Unless there are reasons to consider the existence of the thing at least plausible. Unfalsifiability is a bad thing in science and another reason for rejection.

quote:
In conclusion, this (admittedly non-scholarly, ) model demonstrates the issue I have with atheism. It's a belief stance. Nobody growing up in a space where theism is absent becomes an atheist, why would they?

As I’ve argued above they wouldn’t be theists or agnostics in any meaningful sense either. Atheism makes more sense as a label then either of the other two.

quote:
To me, atheism is just as arrogant as fundamentalist religion or dogmatic scientism, and I have the same issues with all three.

You certainly do not. In fact the arrogance is yours. Here you are declaring a belief off-limits for no reason. Agnostics seriously consider that belief a possibility so to be consistent you should condemn them too.

quote:
What objective knower of truth confirmed to you that your belief is true?

There is nothing wrong with taking a provisional view on the available evidence or on the use of valid heuristics like parsimony. And yet here you are condemning that very thing. What gives you the right to declare this conclusion out of bounds ?

The fact that theology has retreated to unfalsifiability is itself evidence that God doesn’t exist. It’s not the winning move that your view proclaims it.

quote:
We have no way of knowing what percentage of knowable information we know about the universe, so to make such a definitive claim is wild to me.

The idea that something that is supposed to be everywhere is hiding somewhere out of our sight seems pretty wild, too. Again, there is nothing wrong with coming to provisional conclusions on the evidence available. That you object to one particular conclusion and condemn it so strongly with no valid reason says a lot about you and nothing about the conclusion.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Raphael, posted 05-21-2021 10:21 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19228
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 55 of 126 (886493)
05-22-2021 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
05-21-2021 11:10 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

... humanists are in love with the idea that we determine our destiny and that the collective majority can and will rule.


As I have told you many times, we are not "in love" with the idea - we're stuck with the idea. It isn't that we "can" rule - we HAVE to rule because there's nobody to do it for us.

Phat writes:

And ringo will use the words of Jesus as an excuse why we should all become poorer.


And there you go, slamming Jesus again.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 05-21-2021 11:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19228
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 56 of 126 (886494)
05-22-2021 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Raphael
05-21-2021 10:21 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Raphael writes:

If you were on an abandoned island and you never heard of any religion, would the position you come to naturally be atheism?


The default is that if they never heard of leprechauns, most people would not make them up.

Raphael writes:

If yes; how would you test or prove such a thing?


Quite easily. If my leprechaun traps are empty, I don't need to concern myself with leprechauns.

Raphael writes:

In reality, you cannot and couldn't, therefore this would merely be a faith decision on your part.


See above. There is no need for faith when we have observations.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Raphael, posted 05-21-2021 10:21 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Raphael, posted 05-22-2021 9:46 PM ringo has responded

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 171
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 57 of 126 (886509)
05-22-2021 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by nwr
05-21-2021 10:53 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Oh my, look how defensive everyone got

NWR writes:

No, it isn't a belief.

But my friend nwr, of course it is! What objectively true test did you use to come to that conclusion? Who confirmed its objectivity? I'm always baffled when atheists get defensive about this.

As a theist, I believe by faith that a God exists. This is not testable and therefore a truth claim based on faith.

The atheist ( I know this is not quite your position nwr) believes by faith that no God exists. This is not testable and therefore a truth claim based on faith.

It's not really that hard to understand lol, at least in my view, but maybe I'm missing something. Always open to learn.

Perhaps not. Atheism is a rejection of particular kinds of belief. And if you have never heard of them, then there isn't anything to reject.

Exactly! Well, that's one of the atheisms for sure, and while pretty convenient for arguments sake, most atheists I know usually say something along the lines of "I do not believe in God." Which, in reality, after digging a little dedeper and listening to them articulate, this is really a way for them to say "I believe there is no God." Most do not do credible scientific tests to come to this conclusion. I'm not really mad about it, I just think its important to be honest about terms.

(The above is pretty anecdotal, so I'll just double down in that direction) Besides, not only have I been an atheist myself for a time, I have numerous friends who would use the term to describe themselves. Essentially none have done anything remotely close to scientific tests to determine such a thing. For most, it's merely an opposite belief, and most are fine with that. It seems to bother this community though

In summary, "atheism" seems to be a loaded term and the non-faith community don't seem to have consensus on what it means, in my view.

nwr writes:

What belief stance do you take me as having?

I think you already understand the confusion, or you would just use the term rather than agnostic, right? I am a theist, but agnosticism is probably the most intellectually honest place to be. To me it is less of a belief stance and more of an intellectual posture. Based. (that's a gen z term I learned this week )

- Raph

Edited by Raphael, : grammar, punctuation


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by nwr, posted 05-21-2021 10:53 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by nwr, posted 05-22-2021 9:47 PM Raphael has responded
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 05-23-2021 4:07 AM Raphael has not yet responded
 Message 73 by dwise1, posted 05-23-2021 12:26 PM Raphael has responded

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 171
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 58 of 126 (886510)
05-22-2021 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by PaulK
05-22-2021 2:13 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
PaulK writes:

Arguably yes. You wouldn’t necessarily make up a God and start believing in it. You wouldn’t necessarily take up the position that there might be some sort of God.

Really? I don't think you actually believe that. What about essentially every culture known to mankind throughout history that did exactly this? Superstition, creating a shared mythos or understanding of how the world works, this is what almost every people group we have ever observed does.

As I’ve argued above they wouldn’t be theists or agnostics in any meaningful sense either. Atheism makes more sense as a label then either of the other two.

I agree in the first half, but disagree with the second; atheism would be equally as much of a nonsense term. What's more, as seen throughout history, the human default seems to be attaching spiritual significance and meaning to things, even if they are not inherently spiritual. We are spiritual beings, it seems.

In fact the arrogance is yours. Here you are declaring a belief off-limits for no reason. Agnostics seriously consider that belief a possibility so to be consistent you should condemn them too.

Whew, a lot to unpack here. Haha. I never declared any belief off-limits! I have been an atheist and have atheist friends who I love. If you're an atheist, cool man. I'm not mad about it, and I'd love to understand how you got there. However, to not acknowledge that atheism is a faith stance, and for one to act as if they are more objective than anyone else, or have received some objective truth nobody else has is pretty intellectually arrogant.

It's the same sort of dogmatism non-religious folks dislike in fundamentalist religious people, and I would come against that just as strong.

There is nothing wrong with taking a provisional view on the available evidence or on the use of valid heuristics like parsimony. And yet here you are condemning that very thing. What gives you the right to declare this conclusion out of bounds ?

Sure, Im down with all that. Provisional views about things, I'm on that page. But I think this goes back to my comment above to our boy nwr; I don't think the non-faith community has consensus on what the term "atheism" means.

You define atheism as a provisional stance. That is new to me, I appreciate that clarification. Curious how this differs in your mind from a more agnostic stance? To me, when the word "atheism" is used, it is used to mean a non-openness to supernatural data. Do you feel like this is an accurate representation of where you are at?

- Raph

Edited by Raphael, : grammar things and such


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by PaulK, posted 05-22-2021 2:13 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by PaulK, posted 05-23-2021 2:10 AM Raphael has not yet responded

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 171
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 59 of 126 (886511)
05-22-2021 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
05-22-2021 1:07 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
ringo writes:

The default is that if they never heard of leprechauns, most people would not make them up.

Really? People make up all sorts of things though. I think you are underestimating the human imagination

Quite easily. If my leprechaun traps are empty, I don't need to concern myself with leprechauns.

Haha. A few questions:

1) How would one build a leprechaun trap if one has no data on leprechauns?
2) Consider after building said trap, how would one even know if their trap (test) was sufficient to trap (test for) leprechauns?

Island ringo has assumed a lot about leprechauns and their knowledge of them

See above. There is no need for faith when we have observations.

I trust observations. However, in this case, we have no way of knowing if our tests are even able to test what we are trying to test.

In conclusion, we remain leprechaun agnostics, never really knowing whether or not they are real, though an intellectually honest person would probably remain open to the possibility. Anything else is a faith stance.

- Raph

Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 05-22-2021 1:07 PM ringo has responded

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5791
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 60 of 126 (886512)
05-22-2021 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Raphael
05-22-2021 9:06 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
But my friend nwr, of course it is!

What is this belief that atheists supposedly have?

The atheist ( I know this is not quite your position nwr) believes by faith that no God exists.

You are confused between "atheist" and "anti-theist". There are plenty of atheists who are not anti-theist and who have not ruled out the possibility that there's a god.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Raphael, posted 05-22-2021 9:06 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Raphael, posted 05-22-2021 9:57 PM nwr has responded

  
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