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Author Topic:   Is science atheism?
Aussie
Member
Posts: 273
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 106 of 126 (886899)
06-16-2021 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
05-21-2021 11:10 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Hi Phat,

I'll never be too greedy to voluntarily donate but I'll be damned if I let government send me the tithing bill.

FYI, The Government isn't telling you to give an additional 10 percent over your required taxes.

Your God and your church are sending you that bill...


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 05-21-2021 11:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 7:02 AM Aussie has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 126 (886900)
06-17-2021 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Aussie
06-16-2021 1:34 PM


Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
Aussie writes:

FYI, The Government isn't telling you to give an additional 10 percent over your required taxes.

My gripe was the whole liberal mandate for reparations. If they can manage to get that placed in the budget, we will be obliged to pay it. I disagree with the basic premise is all I'm saying.

Your God and your church are sending you that bill...
...

God sends me no bills. It's the church and the organized religion that push that stuff. And I only give to them what I choose to give. I am under no obligation. The only impetus that "my God" places on me is to help those less fortunate. There are no stipulations that any church need receive this money.

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwockian discourse


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Aussie, posted 06-16-2021 1:34 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by nwr, posted 06-17-2021 2:56 PM Phat has responded
 Message 110 by Aussie, posted 06-17-2021 3:16 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 126 (886908)
06-17-2021 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Percy
06-15-2021 9:35 AM


Re: Perceived Choices and Options
Phat writes:

I get defensive sometimes when my critics/opponents dismiss my perceived choice as fantasy-driven and out of touch with reality.
For me, I became convinced when my entire inner feeling changed.

Percy writes:

Nothing changed but your thinking/feelings.

I suppose you can argue that. Most believers would assert that something changed them. That their thinking and feelings were changed.

No new information became available to you, and nothing in the real world changed.
How could you know that? You are not a garden variety believer and thus you have never had the experience with which to critically evaluate.

Phat, Tongue firmly in cheek writes:

Since that initial time, it has largely been confirmation bias.

Percy writes:

Why are you knowingly applying a fallacious non-objective method? Announcing this is like bragging, "I'm an idiot only interested in cementing what I already believe while ignoring evidence of other possibilities."

Why not? If you apply the critical thinking of the scientific method to your belief, you likely will never settle on anything. I believe in standing for something and taking a leap of faith that what I feel and experience is/was God rather than keep looking for something else. I have felt as if He speaks to me at times. I have heard similar confirming stories from others...in some cases, lives were changed for the better. The only place I ever hear tales of lives getting better after dropping religion (and God, and Jesus and the whole nine yards) is in places like EvC. I think many of you threw the Holy Baby out with the bathwater. But go with Science as a philosophy and see how it helps you through hard times. To define and believe that reality favors no one and that we as humans must struggle to survive is not far from Christianity. The main difference is that you dismiss God and claim we must do it ourselves. How depressing! I could care less if I'm the grass that pushed through the sidewalk and survived. Survival in and of itself means nothing. I don't worship our collective offspring.

Percy writes:

I think what you're trying to say is that you feel free to accept or reject evidence based on how you feel about it when it comes to things that can't hurt you or negatively affect you in some way.

I'm thinking about this statement. In some ways, I feel free to accept or reject evidence and how I feel about it when it applies to things that CAN hurt me or negatively affect me. The whole idea of "throwing God away" is insulting and disrespectful to not only Him but to humans in general. We are NOT God. Nor are we the only solution to our own survival. (proving this won't be easy, I know)

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Percy, posted 06-15-2021 9:35 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Percy, posted 06-19-2021 12:50 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5728
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 109 of 126 (886913)
06-17-2021 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
06-17-2021 7:02 AM


Re: Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
My gripe was the whole liberal mandate for reparations.

What mandate is that?

I know quite a few liberals who do not favor reparations. And they do not favor it for good liberal reasons.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 7:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:35 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 273
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 110 of 126 (886914)
06-17-2021 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
06-17-2021 7:02 AM


Re: Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
Hi Phat,

God sends me no bills. It's the church and the organized religion that push that stuff.

Of course He doesn't send you bills. That's because your God isn't real, unlike the humans running the money-grubbing scam that calls itself "the church," who plead for money relentlessly. I've heard it a thousand times, "Give until it hurts, then give some more, and God will give back a hundred fold; pressed down, shaken together, and running over!" Those people are all too real.
It is really a fascinating study reading you Phat; like, how many ways can one person deny the religion he wants to preach to others...


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 7:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 7:54 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 126 (886915)
06-17-2021 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Aussie
06-17-2021 3:16 PM


Re: Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
Aussie writes:

It is really a fascinating study reading you Phat; like, how many ways can one person deny the religion he wants to preach to others...

Quite simply, I believe it is all a spiritual war...and a test of sorts for humanity. For someone who was never initially convinced, the whole story sounds made up, though CS Lewis argued otherwise. Many believers are adamant that the books are literal, but few of them even bother considering other arguments. I never have given them much consideration. I suppose that any good scientific guy would attempt to falsify the belief before accepting it, but I became sold on it due to my emotional transformation, which later proved to be negotiable. Im somewhat of a rebel.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Aussie, posted 06-17-2021 3:16 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 273
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 112 of 126 (886920)
06-18-2021 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
05-23-2021 6:40 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
I would say that atheism is an observation.

I think more correctly, Atheism is a response to the lack of any convincing observation of or evidence for a god or gods.

There is no room for belief as you are never moved by feelings but only facts. Verifiable reality.

The lack of evidence for, and my resulting disbelief in Zeus does not make me "Unmoved by feelings." I have rich and abundant feelings despite my lack of belief in Artemis or Neptune or Diana of the Ephesians or Jesus or Allah or Molech.

You. Should. Know. Better. By. Now.
It feels like you are just throwing stuff at the wall hoping that something sticks. And some of the stuff you are throwing out these days should embarrass you.

The question I ask myself is why. Why is God not plainly visible to everybody?

Because He's not real.

How delusional could I be?

Ummm... nice people can be delusional.

Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 05-23-2021 6:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 273
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 113 of 126 (886925)
06-18-2021 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
06-08-2021 9:46 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
I was taught that beliefs are absolute.

So was I. And it's utter nonsense really. If you agree that witches, gays, adulteresses, and rebellious children should NOT be killed in public as mandated by Scripture, then by definition you are yourself a moral relativist.

My point is that You cant just lump all gods into the same pile.

You really, really can. Every practitioner of every religion in history wanted their god to be real in the same way you want yours to be real.

One of them actually is GOD. An absolute.

Says Phallible Phat and his mushy feelings. Trust me when I tell you that you can't conceive of the clarity and beauty of reality while you are bogged down and lost in the bondage of religion. When you are finally brave enough to stand up and begin to make eye contact with the Universe, the scales will begin to fall off your eyes, and you will wonder why it took you so long.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 06-08-2021 9:46 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 10:38 AM Aussie has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 126 (886928)
06-19-2021 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Aussie
06-18-2021 2:10 PM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Aussie writes:

Says Phallible Phat and his mushy feelings. Trust me when I tell you that you can't conceive of the clarity and beauty of reality while you are bogged down and lost in the bondage of religion. When you are finally brave enough to stand up and begin to make eye contact with the Universe, the scales will begin to fall off your eyes, and you will wonder why it took you so long.

You are projecting your situation onto me. I already do conceive the clarity and beauty of reality. You simply awakened to the fact that you were trying to please Daddy and under willful bondage to an authoritarian religious system. I have never been trapped in such illusions. You also likely fell under the sway of the anti-apologists like Matt Dillahunty, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris...not to mention Dennet. Wanting to reject the oppressive authoritarianism, you threw your god out with it all. For me, throwing God away is as serious as throwing my own life away and throwing the majik of the universe and nature away. Thus I have no reason to even think of doing so.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Aussie, posted 06-18-2021 2:10 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:18 PM Phat has responded
 Message 124 by Aussie, posted 06-19-2021 6:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 115 of 126 (886929)
06-19-2021 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
06-19-2021 10:38 AM


Re: Non-Creation Christianity
Phat writes:

I already do conceive the clarity and beauty of reality.


You can't be objective all by yourself. Every religion thinks they have the clarity that you think you have. Objective reality is something that people with different religious beliefs can agree on.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 10:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 126 (886930)
06-19-2021 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
06-19-2021 12:18 PM


Objective Reality
ringo writes:

You can't be objective all by yourself. Every religion thinks they have the clarity that you think you have. Objective reality is something that people with different religious beliefs can agree on.

So then are you saying that objective reality is arrived at by consensus? I think not. And for that, you call me arrogant.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:34 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 117 of 126 (886931)
06-19-2021 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
06-19-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Objective Reality
Phat writes:

So then are you saying that objective reality is arrived at by consensus?


Pretty much has to be. Nobody can see past the beam in their own eye.

Phat writes:

And for that, you call me arrogant.


I call you arrogant because you think you know better than everybody else.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 118 of 126 (886932)
06-19-2021 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by nwr
06-17-2021 2:56 PM


Re: Reparations, Tithes, and Moral Obligations
nwr writes:

I know quite a few liberals who do not favor reparations. And they do not favor it for good liberal reasons.

That's encouraging.
Liberal moderates don't threaten me. Both liberal and conservative extremists are possessed by another spirit, it seems. They use political causes for their own nefarious ends.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by nwr, posted 06-17-2021 2:56 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 119 of 126 (886933)
06-19-2021 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by ringo
06-19-2021 12:34 PM


Re: Objective Reality
I call you arrogant because you think you know better than everybody else.

So I picked the right God out of a pile of imitators.
Rather, He picked me. And I've been trying to get away from Him ever since. You are right in that I don't usually listen to Him. Nobody really wants to give away all they have. Nobody that we know personally, that is.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 06-19-2021 12:45 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 120 of 126 (886934)
06-19-2021 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
06-19-2021 12:37 PM


Re: Objective Reality
Phat writes:

So I picked the right God out of a pile of imitators.
Rather, He picked me. And I've been trying to get away from Him ever since. You are right in that I don't usually listen to Him. Nobody really wants to give away all they have. Nobody that we know personally, that is.


And once again your post has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Try again. I said, "I call you arrogant because you think you know better than everybody else."


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:37 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:50 PM ringo has responded

  
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