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Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 66 (886670)
05-30-2021 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
05-30-2021 2:48 AM


Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
This is the best video I have yet found that explains money, credit, debt, inflation and deflation, and a template for seeing where we have been, where we are now, and where we likely will be heading.

I encourage anyone with questions to read the transcript.
Transcript

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 2:48 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 32 of 66 (886673)
05-30-2021 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
05-30-2021 2:48 AM


Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Are you saying it couldn't be done or are you saying you don't like it?


I wouldn't like it. At all.

Okay, so we're clear on that - it would be bad for Phat, which is all that matters.

Phat writes:

Though many people would be helped, many others would suffer.


And we've had that since always. So?

Phat writes:

It belies the definition of a revolution.


*shrug*

Ever hear of the American Revolution? Whether a revolution is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

Phat writes:

The wheel simply revolves and the first will be last. And the last first.


Remember who said that? (Matthew 20:16)

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

You're dependent on the community.


Agreed. The Federal Reserve is the villain.

I said no such thing. The Federal Reserve is not your community. Your community existed long before the Federal reserve was ever thought of, long before there was a federation to reserve anything.

Phat writes:

How does a Democratic Socialist see this?


Ask one.

Phat writes:

Is it ok to get poorer?


Yes.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 2:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 11:51 AM ringo has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5714
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 33 of 66 (886674)
05-30-2021 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
05-30-2021 2:48 AM


Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
Seems the current administration is in favor of more stimulus and more debt being introduced into the economy.

I'm not sure where you get that.

The Trump administration ran up the debt. In the last 40 years or so, Republicans have been running up the debt.

The current administration wants to pay for the stimulus with a tax increase on the very wealthy. It is the Republicans who will block that.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 2:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 66 (886675)
05-30-2021 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
05-30-2021 10:54 AM


Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
You really need to read that transcript from the excellent video on how money works. Your communities need to be able to turn their labor into capital. Transcript

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 1:58 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 35 of 66 (886677)
05-30-2021 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
05-30-2021 11:51 AM


Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
Phat writes:

You really need to read that transcript from the excellent video on how money works.


No. You need to explain it. Then maybe you would understand it.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 11:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 2:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 66 (886678)
05-30-2021 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
05-30-2021 1:58 PM


Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
Its pretty self explanatory and it doesnt take Rocket Science to see the logic.
Transcript writes:

Though the economy might seem complex, it works in a simple, mechanical way.
It's made up of a few simple parts and a lot of simple transactions
that are repeated over and over again a zillion times.
These transactions are above all else driven by human nature,
and they create 3 main forces that drive the economy.

  • Number 1: Productivity growth

  • Number 2: The Short term debt cycle

  • Number 3: The Long term debt cycle
  • You claim we can fragment into local economies, but this is neither practical or efficient.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 1:58 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 2:31 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19061
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 37 of 66 (886680)
    05-30-2021 2:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
    05-30-2021 2:26 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    Phat writes:

    You claim we can fragment into local economies, but this is neither practical or efficient.


    What you quoted from the transcript seems to agree more with me than with you:
    quote:
    Though the economy might seem complex, it works in a simple, mechanical way.
    It's made up of a few simple parts and a lot of simple transactions
    that are repeated over and over again a zillion times.

    So explain yourself.


    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 2:26 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 2:59 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 38 of 66 (886681)
    05-30-2021 2:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
    05-30-2021 2:31 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    ringo writes:

    What you quoted from the transcript seems to agree more with me than with you:

    quote:
    Though the economy might seem complex, it works in a simple, mechanical way.
    It's made up of a few simple parts and a lot of simple transactions that are repeated over and over again a zillion times.

    So explain yourself.

    First off, there is nothing wrong with my agreeing with you if, in fact, you are saying something reasonable. I'm simply attempting to explain why the video is logical, rational, and reasonable.

    You've heard the quote that No Man Is An Island. No economy is an Island, either, The planet is interconnected, for better or worse.

    If you simply banded together as Saskatewanians, you may well have plenty of Machinery, transportation, and industrial equipment;
    Food, crop, and beverage processing;
    Wood, steel, and plastic products; and Chemical manufacturing. What you would not have is what the rest of us produce that you don't have. Fish, for example. (apart from lake-caught fish! And some people groups would be unfortunately stuck in non-resource rich communities. How will they survive apart from the rest of us?

    transcript writes:

    Let's start with the simplest part of the economy: Transactions.
    An economy is simply the sum of the transactions that make it up
    and a transaction is a very simple thing.
    You make transactions all the time.
    Every time you buy something you create a transaction.
    Each transaction consists of a buyer
    exchanging money or credit
    with a seller for goods, services or financial assets.
    Credit spends just like money,
    so adding together the money spent and the amount of credit spent,
    you can know the total spending.
    The total amount of spending drives the economy.

    Keep in mind, too that governments trade with each other, and a government is made up of all the seemingly fragmented local economies under their jurisdiction.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 2:31 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 39 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 9:34 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19061
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    (1)
    Message 39 of 66 (886683)
    05-30-2021 9:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
    05-30-2021 2:59 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    Phat writes:

    First off, there is nothing wrong with my agreeing with you if, in fact, you are saying something reasonable.


    But you're not agreeing with me. You posted a quote that agrees with me but it doesn't agree with you.

    Phat writes:

    And some people groups would be unfortunately stuck in non-resource rich communities. How will they survive apart from the rest of us?


    Trade.

    We've had financial collapses in the past and they didn't cause trade to come to a screeching halt.

    Phat writes:

    transcript writes:
    Let's start with the simplest part of the economy: Transactions....


    Again, your transcript does not support what you claim.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Phat, posted 05-30-2021 2:59 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 5:06 PM ringo has responded
     Message 42 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 1:14 AM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 40 of 66 (886700)
    05-31-2021 5:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
    05-30-2021 9:34 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    Transcript writes:

    An economy is simply the sum of the transactions that make it up
    and a transaction is a very simple thing.
    You make transactions all the time.
    Every time you buy something you create a transaction.
    Each transaction consists of a buyer
    exchanging money or credit
    with a seller for goods, services or financial assets.
    Credit spends just like money,
    so adding together the money spent and the amount of credit spent,
    you can know the total spending. The total amount of spending drives the economy. If you divide the amount spent by the quantity sold, you get the price. And that's it. That's a transaction.
    It is the building block of the economic machine.

    Do you agree with the premise so far?

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 9:34 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by ringo, posted 05-31-2021 6:19 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19061
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 41 of 66 (886701)
    05-31-2021 6:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
    05-31-2021 5:06 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    Phat writes:

    Do you agree with the premise so far?


    I have already said that what you quoted agrees with me. Simple transactions. Nothing about the whole system collapsing.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Phat, posted 05-31-2021 5:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 42 of 66 (886706)
    06-01-2021 1:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
    05-30-2021 9:34 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    ringo writes:

    We've had financial collapses in the past and they didn't cause trade to come to a screeching halt.

    Oh?

    History writes:

    The Great Depression of 1929 devastated the U.S. economy. A third of all banks failed.

    Unemployment rose to 25%, and homelessness increased.2 Housing prices plummeted 67%, international trade collapsed by 65%, and deflation soared above 10%. It took 25 years for the stock market to recover.

    65% may not qualify as a screeching halt, but it supports my point. Some areas get hit really hard. You claim that revolutions are in the eyes of the beholder, but who be the holder? Certainly not myself and my neighbors! I don't know what your town thinks, but I doubt that a great depression would thrill them. Unless you are a liberal socialist bordering on favoring anarchy and reparations (or rioting and looting...take your pick ) you would agree with me. This crisis must be prevented.

    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by ringo, posted 05-30-2021 9:34 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by ringo, posted 06-01-2021 12:30 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19061
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 43 of 66 (886722)
    06-01-2021 12:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
    06-01-2021 1:14 AM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    Phat writes:

    History writes:
    The Great Depression of 1929 devastated the U.S. economy. A third of all banks failed.


    Yes. ONE third failed. TWO thirds did not.

    Unemployment rose to 25%, and homelessness increased.2 Housing prices plummeted 67%, international trade collapsed by 65%, and deflation soared above 10%. It took 25 years for the stock market to recover.

    And it did recover.

    So I repeat, we've had financial collapses in the past and they didn't cause trade to come to a screeching halt.

    Phat writes:

    65% may not qualify as a screeching halt, but it supports my point.


    No it doesn't. It supports my point that it isn't an uncommon thing.

    Phat writes:

    Some areas get hit really hard.


    Some areas get hit hard even in boom times - there are still bankruptcies, foreclosures, unemployment, homelessness, etc.

    Phat writes:

    You claim that revolutions are in the eyes of the beholder...


    I said, "Whether a revolution is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder." Message 32

    Phat writes:

    ... but who be the holder?


    When the beholder is an American, he thinks the American Revolution was good. When the beholder is somebody else, he thinks it was treason.

    Phat writes:

    Certainly not myself and my neighbors! I don't know what your town thinks, but I doubt that a great depression would thrill them.



    You're so far off base you can't even see the stadium.

    I didn't say one single, solitary word about anybody "liking" a depression. Whether you like it or not has nothing to do with whether it happens.

    Phat writes:

    Unless you are a liberal socialist bordering on favoring anarchy and reparations...


    I am. (Not "bordering" - right spang in the middle.)

    Phat writes:

    ...(or rioting and looting...take your pick )...


    It isn't a matter of Phat's way or utter chaos. Reality is somewhere in the middle.

    Phat writes:

    ... you would agree with me.


    Of course I don't agree with you. You haven't said a word that makes any sense.

    Phat writes:

    This crisis must be prevented.


    The "crisis" that you're raving about is nothing but your fantasy.

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by Phat, posted 06-01-2021 1:14 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by Phat, posted 06-05-2021 1:07 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 15361
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 44 of 66 (886757)
    06-05-2021 1:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
    06-01-2021 12:30 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    ringo writes:

    Yes. ONE third failed. TWO thirds did not.

    If you worked at a job...a factory, for instance...and 1/3 of the workers were laid off, I guarantee that the othjer 2/3 would feel it also. They likely would be forced to work harder, for one thing.

    You socialists never care about the guy next door. You care about India, or LGBTQ cases of individual injustice, or the fact that many people live below the poverty line. And you think that it's horrible for Trump to give a tax cut to that factory that you hypothetically work at. (Perhaps it is/was...I'm a political moderate but I also see the conservative arguments in favor of tax cuts for small businesses in order to stimulate investment and productivity)

    Tax hikes may not hurt the top 5% of people, but they sure hurt the middle class earning $75,000.00 to $200,000.00 a year. I'm not sure I agree that the middle two quadrants should be forced to pay more simply to help the bottom one. Why can't we all unite against the top quadrant rather than lower the wages of the working middle class to help the poor guys and get the country out of debt? This is why populism is popular. The middle feels besieged and at risk of being fleeced by the globalist agenda.


    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ***
    “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

    “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
    - Criss Jami, Killo

    “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
    (1894).


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by ringo, posted 06-01-2021 12:30 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by ringo, posted 06-05-2021 1:29 PM Phat has responded
     Message 47 by dwise1, posted 06-05-2021 7:59 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 48 by ringo, posted 06-05-2021 9:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19061
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.1


    (1)
    Message 45 of 66 (886759)
    06-05-2021 1:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
    06-05-2021 1:07 PM


    Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
    Phat writes:

    If you worked at a job...a factory, for instance...and 1/3 of the workers were laid off, I guarantee that the othjer 2/3 would feel it also. They likely would be forced to work harder, for one thing.


    We are not talking about whether or not anybody would notice. You claim that the economy will collapse. I say it won't.

    Phat writes:

    You socialists never care about the guy next door.


    Don't be ridiculous. Socialism is ALL about the guy next door. Remember the Good Samaritan? Jesus explained that your neighbor, the guy next door, is also the guy in India and the LBGTQ guy.

    Phat writes:

    I'm not sure I agree that the middle two quadrants should be forced to pay more simply to help the bottom one.


    They shouldn't "have to". They should be voluntarily helping the guy next door, as Jesus said.

    Phat writes:

    Why can't we all unite against the top quadrant...


    There's your class struggle again, Mr. Marx.

    Phat writes:

    This is why populism is popular. The middle feels besieged and at risk of being fleeced by the globalist agenda.


    Since when did Trump have a globalist adgenda?

    "I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by Phat, posted 06-05-2021 1:07 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by Phat, posted 06-05-2021 3:21 PM ringo has responded

      
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