Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 61 (9042 total)
68 online now:
nwr, Percy (Admin), Tangle, Tanypteryx, Taq (5 members, 63 visitors)
Newest Member: maria
Post Volume: Total: 886,019 Year: 3,665/14,102 Month: 285/321 Week: 101/44 Day: 17/26 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Bit Coin: 2 bit bubble
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 98 (887189)
07-22-2021 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tanypteryx
07-21-2021 9:23 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
You do have some good points. Upon reflection, allow me to comment.

The point of no return happens when the interest on the National Debt exceeds all tax revenues. At that point, even raising taxes would not help stem the hemorrhage.
When will U.S. debt become unsustainable? The enormous borrowing during the pandemic was sustainable long-term ONLY because interest rates are low. If interest rates rise again, the debt will become unmanageable.

And you all can call it a conspiracy theory, but one of the main reasons that Gold and precious metals do not rise to their historical levels is because the US Treasury defends the dollar at the expense of Gold. Knowing what I have read about it, I will say that if you peek to the end of any book, Gold Wins. Gold has intrinsic value. The dollar is currently the premier Global Reserve Currency and allows America---unique among other nations, to live beyond its means. (Though debt is a global thing). Surely you are not among the group that expects the bill to be paid at the expense of many of the middle class, are you?

I can provide many quotes from many sources, though if you believe the Fed, I likely won't convince you.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-21-2021 9:23 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-23-2021 11:54 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 07-23-2021 12:12 PM Phat has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2527
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 77 of 98 (887202)
07-23-2021 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
07-22-2021 6:59 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
Surely you are not among the group that expects the bill to be paid at the expense of many of the middle class, are you?

Man, you just keep repeating your silly mantra. "How dare you suggest the middle class pay off the national debt!!!!!!!!!!!!"

The middle class AND the poor have been the only ones paying for it all along.

It's time for the top 10% to pay their share. You are aware that they managed to skim most of the Pandemic emergency funding right into their own pockets aren't you?

If you want to stop being on the hook for the national debt maybe you need to finally start voting for the people who want to make the wealthy pay for their disproportionate influence on government policies. Your team wants wants theft of the national treasure to increase!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-22-2021 6:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 78 of 98 (887203)
07-23-2021 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
07-22-2021 6:59 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
Phat writes:

Gold has intrinsic value.


But the price of gold has nothing to do with its intrinsic value. The price is kept artificially high by the demand of those goobers who think it has some magical universal "value". In an apocalyptic world (which you predict), try eating gold. You might very well wind up trading a brick of gold for a can of sardines.

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-22-2021 6:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-23-2021 12:48 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 07-25-2021 3:56 AM ringo has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2527
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 79 of 98 (887204)
07-23-2021 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
07-23-2021 12:12 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
You might very well wind up trading a brick of gold for a can of sardines.

Screw gold! Diamonds are forever!!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 07-23-2021 12:12 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by dwise1, posted 07-23-2021 3:23 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4639
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 80 of 98 (887205)
07-23-2021 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tanypteryx
07-23-2021 12:48 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
Screw gold! Diamonds are forever!!

Especially valuable for building space lasers! (referring to the 1971 Bond film)

Though from what I caught from MTG (AKA "QAnon-Betty" to distinguish her from "QAnon-Veronica", Boebert) talking about those "secret Jewish space lasers", she was actually talking about masers.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-23-2021 12:48 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 98 (887211)
07-25-2021 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
07-23-2021 12:12 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
ringo writes:

But the price of gold has nothing to do with its intrinsic value. The price is kept artificially high by the demand of those goobers who think it has some magical universal "value". In an apocalyptic world (which you predict), try eating gold. You might very well wind up trading a brick of gold for a can of sardines.

You don't understand basic finance at all and its no wonder very few people do. Gold is kept artificially low rather than high. The reason is to defend the dollar. The dollar is manipulated to a large degree and allows the US citizens the huge advantage of living beyond their means. If the financial stock or bond markets collapsed, the price of gold would skyrocket to well over $10,000.00 an ounce. The reason being that people would desperately need a dependable place to park their money and preserve their purchasing power. Though true that one cannot eat gold, they cannot eat hundred-dollar bills either. Want evidence?

1) Roosevelt confiscated the gold through an executive order in 1933 and paid the public $20.67 in paper currency per each troy ounce. During his fireside chat, he explained to the public that "Behind government currency we have, in addition to the promise to pay,(the words on silver certificates if anyone recalls) a reserve of gold and a small reserve of silver, neither of them anything like the total amount of the currency". So he basically admitted that the US did not have enough gold and silver to back the currency. Remember that the world was still on the gold standard. Now....following the passage of the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 Roosevelt then raised the price of gold to $35.00 an ounce, effectively devaluing the dollar by 69%.

If you doubt the manipulation and if you think that gold is, as John Maynard Keynes proclaimed, "a barbarous relic", explain to me why the central banks own nearly half of the world's gold and expect to increase that number? The price is definitely manipulated to keep the true value low.

Of course, you may make money investing in cans of sardines! Food prices are expected to increase. Inflation is not transitory!


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 07-23-2021 12:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2021 4:49 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 07-25-2021 3:24 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2021 8:24 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16883
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 82 of 98 (887212)
07-25-2021 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
07-25-2021 3:56 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
quote:
You don't understand basic finance at all and its no wonder very few people do.

Says the guy who doesn’t understand basic finance.

quote:
Gold is kept artificially low rather than high.

So you say, but I’ve yet to see any real support for it.

quote:
The reason is to defend the dollar. The dollar is manipulated to a large degree and allows the US citizens the huge advantage of living beyond their means. If the financial stock or bond markets collapsed, the price of gold would skyrocket to well over $10,000.00 an ounce. The reason being that people would desperately need a dependable place to park their money and preserve their purchasing power.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense. An artificially high dollar brings problems. A rise in gold prices doesn’t seem likely to lead to the dollar losing value relative to other major currencies. Skyrocketing prices for gold would cause problems for everyone who uses it as a material. Also a bubble like that is not a sign of “dependable” “purchasing power” at all. It’s usually followed by a crash.

quote:
If you doubt the manipulation and if you think that gold is, as John Maynard Keynes proclaimed, "a barbarous relic", explain to me why the central banks own nearly half of the world's gold and expect to increase that number? The price is definitely manipulated to keep the true value low.

Constraining supply doesn’t keep prices artificially low. It keeps prices artificially high. If the central banks wanted to keep prices low they would have to sell gold, not buy it and stockpile it in their vaults.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 07-25-2021 3:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 83 of 98 (887214)
07-25-2021 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
07-25-2021 3:56 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
Phat writes:

You don't understand basic finance at all....


Funny nobody else corrected what I said.

Phat writes:

Gold is kept artificially low rather than high. The reason is to defend the dollar.


Germany, Italy, France, Russia, China, Switzerland all have large gold reserves. All to defend the US dollar?

Phat writes:

If you doubt the manipulation....


You might want to look up the meaning of the word "intrinsic". The intrinsic value of a coin, for example is just the value of the gold in it - but its market value depends on its rarity and condition.

Gold is like baseball cards. It's worth what people will pay for it.

Phat writes:

... explain to me why the central banks own nearly half of the world's gold and expect to increase that number?


The same reason that people collect baseball cards.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed link.


"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 07-25-2021 3:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16883
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 84 of 98 (887227)
07-26-2021 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
07-25-2021 3:56 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
Since you’re boasting of how clever you are and you’re so sure you’re right about the price of gold ([msg=887226]) please explain this:

If you doubt the manipulation and if you think that gold is, as John Maynard Keynes proclaimed, "a barbarous relic", explain to me why the central banks own nearly half of the world's gold and expect to increase that number? The price is definitely manipulated to keep the true value low.

That is not manipulating the price of gold to to keep it low. It’s not even a sign that the banks think the price is low (else they would be buying now). The basic concepts of supply and demand are not that difficult.

So explain why you think that the banks holding on to large stockpiles of gold (constraining supply) - and planning to buy more (future demand) indicates that they are keeping the price down.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 07-25-2021 3:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-27-2021 5:17 AM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20117
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 85 of 98 (887246)
07-26-2021 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
07-13-2021 9:14 AM


Re: The Big Picture Needs Reviewing
Phat writes:

Percy writes:

It's obvious scaremongers have taken over your thinking.

This is a possibility. I have been listening to a book on Audible:

The Big Silver Short: How The Wall Street Banks Have Left The Silver Market In Place For The Short-Squeeze Of A Lifetime

I can discern bullshit from substance, however.

You really can't.

They are not simply trying to sell silver. (Though they may have succeeded in selling the book! )

Read the introduction and tell me what you think.

Explain what the introduction says in your own words.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-13-2021 9:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 98 (887252)
07-27-2021 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by PaulK
07-26-2021 8:24 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
That is not manipulating the price of gold to to keep it low. It’s not even a sign that the banks think the price is low (else they would be buying now). The basic concepts of supply and demand are not that difficult.
The banks dont own Gold as an investment. They own Gold as a backing for the dollars. By owning so much Gold, they can control the market through buying it and selling it so that the Gold itself never goes out of their control. The Gold is still the bedrock of the financial system after 5000 years of History. Though our money (and global currency) is not tied to Gold, Gold itself competes (by default) with the fiat currencies of the world. The financial system makes far more through fractional reserve banking, derivatives, Bonds and Stocks than it could ever make on Gold or Silver. Nonetheless, they would have no reason to even own Gold had it no role to play in the whole global financial system. Here are some facts:
1) When FDR outlawed the public possession(hoarding) of Gold and paid out $20.67 per ounce, ordering the public to surrender their metal...then raising the price to $35.00 an ounce which instantly devalued the US dollar by 60+% he had (or "they" ...Central Bankers and Governments) a reason to do so. The currencies can be manipulated. Gold and Silver cannot. They CAN be suppressed and they can be sold as paper futures, but the metals themselves are the default value of the entire financial system. Stocks are based on dollars. Bonds are based on dollars. Derivatives and real estate are based on dollars. Other currencies are based on dollars. Oil is sold in dollars (or one of the other two or three global reserve currencies. But dollars are still based on Gold. Not other currencies and not the faith of the US government or the "god" printed on the money itself. When Nixon took the US off of the Gold standard in 1970, Gold went up and the money was continually devalued. $10.00 in 1960 is roughly equivalent to $100.00 in purchasing power today. An ounce of Gold never becomes worth less, The dollars it is measured by do. Banks own Gold as an insurance policy. Gold (and Silver) is NOT an investment.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2021 8:24 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 07-27-2021 6:17 AM Phat has responded
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 07-29-2021 5:14 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16883
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 87 of 98 (887253)
07-27-2021 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
07-27-2021 5:17 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
quote:
The banks dont own Gold as an investment. They own Gold as a backing for the dollars

More accurately they own it as an asset. It’s not specifically to back the currency. The dollar is not based on gold. That’s not been the case since it was taken off the Gold Standard (by definition!).

The gold stockpiles are just another asset.

quote:
By owning so much Gold, they can control the market through buying it and selling it so that the Gold itself never goes out of their control

Even with that amount there are limits to what they can do. And that they could do something doesn’t mean that they are doing it.

quote:
The currencies can be manipulated. Gold and Silver cannot.

Doesn’t manipulating the price qualify? Why not?

I note that NONE of what you say indicates any price manipulation at all. And that was the point you were meant to be explaining.

How does the fact that the central banks own lots of gold and plan to buy more show that they are manipulating the price to keep it low?

If it doesn’t, then why did you so confidently assert that it does?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-27-2021 5:17 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-27-2021 7:23 PM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 98 (887258)
07-27-2021 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
07-27-2021 6:17 AM


Making My Case
I will have to reread a lot of what I have listened to. Though some sources, such as Schiff, are less believable (to you at least) than an official statement from a Treasury Secretary, President, or Federal Reserve official, I smell a rat...and I'm not blaming Biden any more than I would blame Trump, Nixon, or even FDR.

This sort of stuff has been going on a long time and the reason it is becoming important now is that there is no way that the world can keep doing this sort of thing due to the fact that debt is far out of control. Perhaps a proper question to ask ourselves is "so what"? One thing that worries me a bit, however, is that the population of the US will someday soon not be allowed to live on borrowed money any longer. If that doesn't concern any of you, perhaps you could explain why.

I simply squirm at the idea that the quality of life that I grew up with may someday be nothing more than a memory. I also am interested in what many of the financial apologists say about a "great reset". I don't think its that far fetched.

I got this from the BBC.

What is the Great Reset - and how did it get hijacked by conspiracy theories?

Edited by Phat, : added link


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 07-27-2021 6:17 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 07-27-2021 8:50 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 07-28-2021 1:06 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 89 of 98 (887259)
07-27-2021 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
07-27-2021 7:23 PM


Re: Making My Case
Phat writes:

I will have to reread a lot of what I have listened to.


That's a good way to reinforce your confirmation bias. Try reading some stuff that disagrees with you.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-27-2021 7:23 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16883
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 90 of 98 (887260)
07-28-2021 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
07-27-2021 7:23 PM


Re: Making My Case
quote:
I will have to reread a lot of what I have listened to

No. If it was clear evidence of manipulation to keep the price low - that we should understand without listening to all that crap - you shouldn’t need anything else.

If it isn’t - if even you don’t understand it - then you were wrong and should admit it. And, in fact, basic economics says you are wrong. Holding onto large stockpiles doesn’t hold the prices down, noting an intent to make future purchases doesn’t keep the price down. In fact both of them would tend to keep the price up.

quote:
This sort of stuff has been going on a long time and the reason it is becoming important now is that there is no way that the world can keep doing this sort of thing due to the fact that debt is far out of control

Maybe it is, but misunderstanding economics is not going to help you. If you are getting things so badly wrong and confused then I don’t think the answer is to listen to more of the material that got you into that state.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-27-2021 7:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 07-29-2021 2:15 AM PaulK has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021