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Author Topic:   Bit Coin: 2 bit bubble
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 178 (887481)
08-05-2021 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
08-05-2021 11:11 AM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
And you are generalizing all youtube responses as exploitative without proof. The truth is that it is our own Federal Reserve and leaders who are exploitative. I wont bother trying to explain it any more than i have. Its your money and your blind trust in a system that is broken.

I think dwise1 might even see some logic in what i say though the rest of you are gullible sheeple. Dont whine to me when the value of your investments shrinks by 30% in the next 3-5 years. im not an idiot.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 08-05-2021 11:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 08-06-2021 9:09 AM Phat has responded
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 08-06-2021 11:48 AM Phat has responded
 Message 124 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2021 12:12 PM Phat has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 122 of 178 (887488)
08-06-2021 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-05-2021 5:34 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
God, Phat, stop bolluxing up the discussion. We're talking about your ideas. Regardless their source you're still expected to present them in your own words. This is to ensure that you understand what you're talking about.

I wont bother trying to explain it any more than i have.

You haven't explained anything. You just keep issuing baseless dire warnings while referencing YouTube videos. Use your words!

I think dwise1 might even see some logic in what i say though the rest of you are gullible sheeple. Dont whine to me when the value of your investments shrinks by 30% in the next 3-5 years. im not an idiot.

There may not be a single true thing in that entire paragraph. Anytime you'd like to dip your toe into a fact-based discussion it would be more than welcome.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-05-2021 5:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 7:22 AM Percy has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 123 of 178 (887489)
08-06-2021 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-05-2021 5:34 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
Phat writes:

And you are generalizing all youtube responses as exploitative without proof.


Surely you realize that it would be impossible to prove anything about all YouTube videos. Only the ones that you have presented have been criticized. Maybe you just have a talent for picking bad sources.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-05-2021 5:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 8:16 AM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5984
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 124 of 178 (887490)
08-06-2021 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-05-2021 5:34 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
im not an idiot.

From this perspective this statement is suspect.

You've said you have a history of gambling and, apparently not successfully. You've had that experience. You know the emotional high you get by taking the chance. You know you had a problem with choosing your bets in the past.

You should have felt those same emotions luring you into this bet. You didn't learn from your past.

Regardless, you are now in a position of your own making and "buyer's remorse" may be grating on your mind from all this negative feedback.

If you are really able to afford this investment without selling the farm, and you yourself indicated a 3-5 year timeframe to see this through, then I have some more advice for you.

Don't break under the pressure and sell out your investment. You are in it now and to dump it is a sure loss. Your best move, at this point, is to ride the bumper car and hope your prognostications are correct.

What I'm concerned about is, now that you have made this error, you will be susceptible to remorse, embarrassed at the error and the need to correct the error by selling out at every down tick.

Don't do that.

You're willing to give it a 3 year stint ... do so.

And stop looking at the daily market. Ignore the daily shifts. Every quarter you check the market. If/when there is an uptick that gives you a clear break-even or gain after expenses, then you can sell.

You made a bet. Consider yourself under contract like a come bet in craps. You cannot bring it down until the future is revealed.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-05-2021 5:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by vimesey, posted 08-06-2021 4:08 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 6:57 AM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1256
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.6


(1)
Message 125 of 178 (887491)
08-06-2021 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by AZPaul3
08-06-2021 12:12 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
You're a good man Paul.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2021 12:12 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 178 (887493)
08-07-2021 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by AZPaul3
08-06-2021 12:12 PM


Re: Shifty Schiff and the Financial Apologists
AZ writes:

You've said you have a history of gambling and, apparently not successfully. You've had that experience. You know the emotional high you get by taking the chance. You know you had a problem with choosing your bets in the past.

You should have felt those same emotions luring you into this bet. You didn't learn from your past.

I have learned some lessons over the years. The first time I felt the urge to buy into precious metals was in 1993, shortly after I "got saved" at church and felt the first stirrings of what Percy calls "some prescient messenger". Now...I know you guys are gonna think I'm some sort of loon, but at that time I felt the first inner stirrings of a spiritual war. The good guy was the Holy Spirit. The competitor was the idolatry and obsession with Gold and Silver. At that time, I had received an inheritance of roughly $40,000.00 and I plopped the whole lot into Gold ($400.00 an ounce at that time) Platinum(roughly also $450.00 an ounce at that time) and Silver($4.00-$4.25 an ounce) I felt as if I was told to do it by the Holy Spirit Itself! Had I been patient from that day forward until today and sat on my prescient investments as I believe the Spirit told me, I would now be worth close to $500,000.00 from that $40,000.00 alone.

Unfortunately, I later became addicted to gambling and sold most of those metals BEFORE they rose to what they are today.

So have I learned anything?

Honestly, AZ I thank you for reminding me of what common sense means.

Don't break under the pressure and sell out your investment. You are in it now and to dump it is a sure loss. Your best move, at this point, is to ride the bumper car and hope your prognostications are correct.

What I'm concerned about is, now that you have made this error, you will be susceptible to remorse, embarrassed at the error, and the need to correct the error by selling out at every downtick.

Again...thanks.
I will weigh your advice very carefully and respectfully. God works like that. He uses someone such as yourself who is an unbeliever to convey His wisdom.

I will give myself a 3-5 year timeframe before making any moves. At worst, I will be stuck with my investments. At best? God only knows.

Edited by Phat, : AZ Paul3...not PaulK


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by AZPaul3, posted 08-06-2021 12:12 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 178 (887494)
08-07-2021 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Percy
08-06-2021 9:09 AM


Can We Have A Fact Based Discussion?
Percy writes:

Anytime you'd like to dip your toe into a fact-based discussion it would be more than welcome.

Here are today's facts from Yahoo Finance. Our BitCoin is again on its way up. Silver and Gold? Down slightly.

Yahoo writes:

From 08/06/2021:
BitCoin: $43,487.92
Up $2,908.06 or 7.16%.
----------------------------
Gold: $1758.40. Down $46.70 or 2.59%.
----------------------------
Silver: $24.33. Down .96 or 3.80%.

Yet I'd take the latter two long before I would even touch a cryptocurrency! Time will tell my decisions and perceptions.
I will do as AZPaul3 suggests and give these markets 3-5 years before reacting emotionally (and addictively)

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Percy, posted 08-06-2021 9:09 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2021 8:13 AM Phat has responded
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 08-07-2021 9:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 08-12-2021 7:51 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 128 of 178 (887495)
08-07-2021 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
08-07-2021 7:22 AM


Re: Can We Have A Fact Based Discussion?
All right. What facts support the idea that the banks are keeping the price of gold low? That they are holding large amounts of gold certainly does not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 7:22 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 8:31 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 178 (887496)
08-07-2021 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
08-06-2021 11:48 AM


Challenging Sources Of Information
ringo writes:

Surely you realize that it would be impossible to prove anything about all YouTube videos. Only the ones that you have presented have been criticized. Maybe you just have a talent for picking bad sources.

First of all, you haven't even been able to watch any of them at that free library setup that you frequent. I also doubt if Percy bothered to watch/listen to very much of them, likely concluding his assessment long before having done so. Tangle calls it all "Gambling" yet the same could be said about his investments. I know the difference between gambling and investing. If I could be guilty of betting, I will admit that I am betting that precious metals will outperform the US Dollar over the next 5 years.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 08-06-2021 11:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2021 8:26 AM Phat has responded
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-07-2021 11:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 130 of 178 (887497)
08-07-2021 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
08-07-2021 8:16 AM


Re: Challenging Sources Of Information
quote:
I will admit that I am betting that precious metals will outperform the US Dollar over the next 5 years.

Let us note that you need a 12% rise in the price of silver to break even on your recent purchase.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 8:16 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 8:33 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 178 (887498)
08-07-2021 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by PaulK
08-07-2021 8:13 AM


Re: Can We Have A Fact Based Discussion?
PaulK writes:

What facts support the idea that the banks are keeping the price of gold low? That they are holding large amounts of gold certainly does not.

First off, high and low are relative terms. In my mind, Gold should be higher than it is relative to the US Dollar due to inflation having eroded the purchasing power of the dollar since 1940.

The metals should be the standard. Otherwise, the only other standard that we have is either the dollar, a basket of global currencies (relative to each other and to global supply/demand), and ultimately human value itself. I have long suspected that the final currency will be concretely linked to humans and that we will be assigned a value in order to back this currency system. Not sure exactly how this will play out, and I will admit to being influenced by Biblical dogmatic "fantasies" yet unproven.

Thus I would argue that the Banks are keeping the price of the metals stable rather than allowing it to be fueled by speculation. If the metals themselves become a haven for money taken out of stocks, bonds, or cryptocurrencies, the sheer volume of the abandoned markets would drive the price upward tenfold. Again, the metals will always have value until the very "end" of this life on this planet, when the humans will imagine themselves wise enough to set their own standard relative to themselves....which as the mythos suggests will not end well.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2021 8:13 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2021 8:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 08-07-2021 12:05 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 178 (887499)
08-07-2021 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by PaulK
08-07-2021 8:26 AM


Re: Challenging Sources Of Information
12% is nothing. I expect the price to at least double...and that's being conservative.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2021 8:26 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 133 of 178 (887500)
08-07-2021 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
08-07-2021 8:31 AM


Re: Can We Have A Fact Based Discussion?
quote:
First off, high and low are relative terms. In my mind, Gold should be higher than it is relative to the US Dollar due to inflation having eroded the purchasing power of the dollar since 1940.

That’s opinion, not fact.

So is the idea that value should be based on precious metals. They aren’t any better just because you don’t like the alternatives you see.

quote:
Thus I would argue that the Banks are keeping the price of the metals stable rather than allowing it to be fueled by speculation.

I thought you were asking for a fact-based discussion, not one based purely on opinion Especially as there isn’t even a decent connection between the opinions and the conclusion. And if gold were the basis of value the banks would have even more incentive to keep it stable.

quote:
If the metals themselves become a haven for money taken out of stocks, bonds, or cryptocurrencies, the sheer volume of the abandoned markets would drive the price upward tenfold.

If demand was boosted sky-high the price would quickly rise, yes. But obviously that demand doesn’t exist right now. Are you blaming the banks for that? On what factual basis ?

So let’s note you ask for a fact-based discussion, and then utterly fail to produce facts supporting your position.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 8:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 134 of 178 (887501)
08-07-2021 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
08-07-2021 7:22 AM


Re: Can We Have A Fact Based Discussion?
Phat writes:

Percy writes:

Anytime you'd like to dip your toe into a fact-based discussion it would be more than welcome.


Here are today's facts from Yahoo Finance. Our BitCoin is again on its way up. Silver and Gold? Down slightly.
Yahoo writes:

From 08/06/2021:
BitCoin: $43,487.92
Up $2,908.06 or 7.16%.
----------------------------
Gold: $1758.40. Down $46.70 or 2.59%.
----------------------------
Silver: $24.33. Down .96 or 3.80%.

You haven't thought this through. Sure, those are facts, but how did you imagine that one day's prices for gold, silver and bitcoin advanced your arguments?

This is from The most dangerous scam in American history from today's Washington Post:

quote:
Everyone has, at some point, been fooled into thinking something fake was real.
...
A few weeks ago, Dartmouth University sociology professor Brooke Harrington wrote about the psychology of being conned. The context was vaccine skepticism, but the lessons she identifies very much apply to those who deny the actual results of the election, and to Lindell in particular.

She points to a 1952 study from Erving Goffman that explored how those who have been conned might be eased out of the fraud. Every con ends at some point, after all, and the target of the con is left suddenly standing in the harsh spotlight of reality.

“When the blowoff comes, the mark finds that he has no defense for not being a shrewd man,” Goffman wrote. “He has defined himself as a shrewd man and must face the fact that he is only another easy mark. He has defined himself as possessing a certain set of qualities and then proven to himself that he is miserably lacking in them. This is a process of self‑destruction of the self.”


You've been conned. Nothing wrong with that, happens to lots of people. You're problem is that you're psychologically predispositioned to be conned over and over and over again, plus you keep seeking magical solutions. Your life history confirms this. You have a long established recurring self-destructive pattern.

I have not watched any of your YouTube videos. I already know what a scam looks like. You need better arguments than, "You better listen to me else you'll be sorry someday."

Here's an example of an argument that makes sense: Housing prices have been rising recently, but it seems possible that the rise could be at an end and that prices could actually begin dropping over the next year. This is because the foreclosure moratorium is ending, and as banks foreclose on homes with overdue mortgages the inventory of unsold houses will grow, putting downward pressure on housing prices.

Can you see how this paragraph draws a connection between real world events or circumstances (end of the foreclosure moratorium) and real world effects (increasing numbers of unsold homes) with real world consequences (decreasing home prices)? Especially note that there is no fiction, no conspiracy theories. The foreclosure moratorium *did* end. The pandemic *did* leave many people way behind on their mortages. Banks *do* have a long history of foreclosing on homes where mortgage payments are way behind and are very likely to continue doing so. And the law of supply/demand has been long established, that the more of something there is (houses) the cheaper they get.

You need to do the same thing for your ideas about silver, and you need to do it without irrationality, appeals to fear, and conspiracy theories.

Something you need to look up: The Dutch Tulip Panic of 1637

Something you need to read: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 7:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19226
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 135 of 178 (887508)
08-07-2021 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
08-07-2021 8:16 AM


Re: Challenging Sources Of Information
Phat writes:

I know the difference between gambling and investing.


Investing in a casino would be buying shares in the casino and collecting your profits in the form of dividends. Gambling is betting on the short-term rise and fall of the cards, the dice or the roulette wheel.

Investing in metals would be buying shares in the mining companies and collecting dividends based on their profits.

Phat writes:

If I could be guilty of betting, I will admit that I am betting that precious metals will outperform the US Dollar over the next 5 years.


And I would bet that, like most gamblers, you won't get out when you're ahead. If your silver goes up by 100% in the next five years, you'll hang onto it and hope it goes up another 100%.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 08-07-2021 8:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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