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Author Topic:   More Trumper Inanity
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1254
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 31 of 79 (889026)
10-30-2021 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
09-26-2021 9:31 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
How many people think Democrats are socialists? 64% of Republicans. They're delusional, and they likely don't know the definition of socialism.

But you didn't provide the definition of socialism. Why don't we look at that?

quote:
1)a theory or system of social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole, usually through a centralized government.

2)procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3)(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

and;

quote:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done


Definition of SOCIALISM

Democrats aren't in favor of incremental increases in government owned land? Capitalism to communism, referenced in the definitions above?

https://www.usatoday.com/...den-conservation-plan/6215104001

Action against climate change, that most all Democrats favor, fits neatly into every one of those definitions. Did you know that Bernie Sanders identifies himself as a socialist? From Biden and other high profile Democrats to posters on this forum, there are very few attempts from any of them to distance themselves from Sander's beliefs and proposals.

Do you need more links to show the clear relationship with today's Democrat party and socialism?

Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) - Working towards a better future for all.

Why are you in denial of obvious reality?

If I posted made-up stuff about rigged elections and about Democratic advocacy of socialism and about the collapse of the American dollar and American power or about taxing immigrants or about the ether or about the mind not being part of the physical world, then in no time people like you and marc9000 and LamarkNewAge and Michael MD and Christian7 would be quoting those in your particular interest area as if they were fact. This is because none of you have the ability to tell truth from falsity. The criteria you use to judge an idea or tale true or false is whether it appeals to you, not whether there's any actual truth to it.

Is your fantasy that Democrats aren't socialists something that appeals to you, no matter what the truth actually is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 09-26-2021 9:31 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-31-2021 12:31 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 10-31-2021 12:32 AM marc9000 has responded
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 10-31-2021 6:38 AM marc9000 has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2018
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 32 of 79 (889027)
10-31-2021 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by marc9000
10-30-2021 10:25 PM


Hey I just saw my name!
I have not been following this thread. I have no clue what Percy just said ( I typically know exactly what he is trying to do, but I have to confess that he can FINALLY brag about my misunderstanding. It isn't bragging unless it is true).

I never knew Judicial Watch was mentioned here, either, until few hours ago.

I just find this site uninspired these days.

I remember when I used to debate people with real spirit.

My greatest moment ever (online) was when I got Howard Dean's online campaign maestro, Jerome Armstrong, to admit that there was strong evidence for a CIA hand in the 9/11 attacks. I dared him to post it on his MYDD blog. He said, in email, he was not afraid.

So he went and posted that he does not buy the official 9/11 story, for the whole world to see. He referenced the French intelligence showing the July 4-14 meeting in Dubai.

Right after that, Dean, on Diane Rheim, said he was intrigued by the idea that Bush got intel from the Saudis, but allowed the attack to happen.

I was so proud of myself!

(THE Daily Kos founder used to refer to Armstrong as his blogfather)

I used to debate men with character.

(And I bet polling would show that less than 50% buy the official 9/11 government story, in 2021. It was around 50/50 in a 2007 Rasmussen poll)

I like the bold ones better than the partisan mush we have here.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 10-30-2021 10:25 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20410
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 33 of 79 (889028)
10-31-2021 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by marc9000
10-30-2021 10:25 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Has it been six months already?

—Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 10-30-2021 10:25 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-31-2021 12:38 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 40 by marc9000, posted 10-31-2021 8:12 PM Percy has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2018
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 34 of 79 (889029)
10-31-2021 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Percy
10-31-2021 12:32 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Nobody follows your partisan blather, Percy.

I have little interest in your attention.

Sorry.

(I would have been honored years ago)

I respect your site, and intelligence. I also like alot of your effort.

You are just too cookie-cutter. It is not going to click.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 10-31-2021 12:32 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 10-31-2021 2:32 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 35 of 79 (889031)
10-31-2021 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by marc9000
10-30-2021 10:25 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
quote:
But you didn't provide the definition of socialism. Why don't we look at that?

quote:
1)a theory or system of social organization that advocates the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, capital, land, etc., by the community as a whole, usually through a centralized government.

2)procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3)(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

and;

quote:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done



OK, I think that’s really enough to prove that the Democrats aren’t socialist.

quote:
Democrats aren't in favor of incremental increases in government owned land? Capitalism to communism, referenced in the definitions above?

https://www.usatoday.com/...den-conservation-plan/6215104001


Obviously not. It’s not about taking over production or distribution of goods, and it isn’t going to abolish capitalism.. Conservation is not communism. Limited acquisition of land for that purpose is pretty obviously well short of a move towards communism.

quote:
Action against climate change, that most all Democrats favor, fits neatly into every one of those definitions.

I don’t think that you’re stupid enough to believe that. Where’s the wholesale nationalisation of industry, for a start?

quote:
Did you know that Bernie Sanders identifies himself as a socialist? From Biden and other high profile Democrats to posters on this forum, there are very few attempts from any of them to distance themselves from Sander's beliefs and proposals

I know that Bernie Sanders is on the left of the Democratic Party and is opposed by the party establishment. That alone is enough to refutes the point. The fact that Sanders isn’t proposing socialism by the definitions you quote annihilates it.

quote:
Do you need more links to show the clear relationship with today's Democrat party and socialism?

Obviously we need more than none,

quote:
Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) - Working towards a better future for all.

Hard to tell from that if they’re going for full socialism or a mixed economy like Germany. In the short term they certainly aren’t going all the way. And they aren’t the Democratic Party.

quote:
Is your fantasy that Democrats aren't socialists something that appeals to you, no matter what the truth actually is?

Since you’ve demonstrated that the Democratic Party isn’t socialist it obviously isn’t a fantasy.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by marc9000, posted 10-30-2021 10:25 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-31-2021 6:53 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 42 by marc9000, posted 10-31-2021 9:24 PM PaulK has responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3860
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 36 of 79 (889032)
10-31-2021 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
10-31-2021 6:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
And remember, the single greatest socialistic movement in the U.S. is the congressional/military/industrial complex.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." - John Kenneth Galbraith

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. - Paul Krugman (as stolen from Chiroptera's signature)

"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes" - Ronald Reagan (1984)

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 10-31-2021 6:38 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by PaulK, posted 10-31-2021 7:21 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 37 of 79 (889033)
10-31-2021 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Minnemooseus
10-31-2021 6:53 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
These guys seem pretty socialist, too.

All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-31-2021 6:53 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 38 of 79 (889036)
10-31-2021 9:47 AM


He is an internet troll
He is an internet troll spreading lies and misinformation and there is no benefit in responding to his bullshit. Don't take his bait.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19302
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(4)
Message 39 of 79 (889046)
10-31-2021 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by LamarkNewAge
10-31-2021 12:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
LamarkNewAge writes:

Nobody follows your partisan blather, Percy.


My name is Nobody.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-31-2021 12:38 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1254
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 40 of 79 (889057)
10-31-2021 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Percy
10-31-2021 12:32 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Has it been six months already?

No, but as (I think) I've alluded to before, when I see my name brought up and passed around with no recent provocation from me, I have that human tendency to want to defend myself right away.

But I'll make you a deal, after reading my Message 31 carefully, and still maintaining that today's Democrats and Socialism have absolutely no relationship to each other, while also agreeing with Jar's constant cries of "fascism" every time a Republican says one word about Christian principles, tradition, individual liberty, and limited government, (and get yourself 10 approval dots in the process) I promise I'll be gone from this forum forever, or at least for a few more years until climate change surges and causes us all to melt in our shoes. So you might want to consider that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 10-31-2021 12:32 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by kjsimons, posted 10-31-2021 8:24 PM marc9000 has responded
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 11-01-2021 2:46 PM marc9000 has responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 740
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 7.6


(3)
Message 41 of 79 (889058)
10-31-2021 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by marc9000
10-31-2021 8:12 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Well this just proves that you are an idiot. The Democrats don't want socialism, they want social programs that help All Citizens! So, just to recap it since you don't seem to be able to comprehend it, they want social programs that benefit citizens that need it and do not want the government to take over the means of production (i.e. actual Socialism).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by marc9000, posted 10-31-2021 8:12 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by marc9000, posted 10-31-2021 9:29 PM kjsimons has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1254
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 42 of 79 (889059)
10-31-2021 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
10-31-2021 6:38 AM


Re: What does the evidence show?
OK, I think that’s really enough to prove that the Democrats aren’t socialist.

I suppose so, if you didn't read it, and you're unaware of current Democrat activity. Democrat's current spending proposals with trillions in borrowed / printed money, Biden's "30 X 30" land confiscation proposal, Democrat's (including the "independent" Sander's war on fossil fuels), with the subsequent government "ownership and control of the means of production and distribution" (from the definitions above) and other Democrat proposals that are described word for word in the definitions above.

marc9000 writes:

Democrats aren't in favor of incremental increases in government owned land? Capitalism to communism, referenced in the definitions above?

Obviously not. It’s not about taking over production or distribution of goods

If you look at Democrat's "Green New Deal" proposals, you'll see exactly that.

, and it isn’t going to abolish capitalism.. Conservation is not communism. Limited acquisition of land for that purpose is pretty obviously well short of a move towards communism.

It's not obvious to those who know something about history, about the tactics of past tyrants to control and oppress their people. And none of those past tyrants had the giant CLIMATE CHANGE card in their hands to play, it's far bigger than any card past tyrants had. It's not obvious to those who know about the mindset of the U.S. founders as they structured the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

marc9000 writes:

Action against climate change, that most all Democrats favor, fits neatly into every one of those definitions.

I don’t think that you’re stupid enough to believe that. Where’s the wholesale nationalisation of industry, for a start?

The nationalization of industry isn't done overnight, past tyrants that the U.S. founders were fully aware of have done that kind of takeover incrementally. Playing the "conservation" game is how incrementalism works. When the U.S. population is naturally increasing as it always has, combined with current unprecedented illegal immigration, when we're rapidly approaching the $30 trillion mark in debt, when the Taliban was handed major victory in its ability to threaten the U.S., common sense tells some of us that "conservation" really shouldn't be on top of the to-do list.

I know that Bernie Sanders is on the left of the Democratic Party and is opposed by the party establishment.

Opposed? Do you have evidence of this opposition? Name some things that Sanders proposes, that the Democrat leaders like AOC, Schumer, Pelosi, Biden and Harris vehemently oppose, and show me some links to liberal / Democrat websites that show the discussion about it.

That alone is enough to refutes the point.

No it's too "alone", it needs more than just a statement from a Democrat, it needs evidence.

The fact that Sanders isn’t proposing socialism by the definitions you quote annihilates it.

That's not a fact, because the fact is that he really does propose socialism. Let's look at Sanders' "12 point plan" that he has long had. Here's a link;

Bernie Sanders (socialist, VT) has a 12 point plan.

Here it is, simplified;

1)Grow the government on borrowed / printed money.
2)Use climate change fear to grow the government.
3)Make workers more dependent on government.
4)More unions, heavily influenced by government control.
5)Put the government in control of wage amounts.
6)Government control of women's wages.
7End current trade policies, with...who knows what. Here's a wild guess, more government involvement.
8)College education, paid for by borrowed / printed money, that the government provides.
9)Government control of financial institutions
10)Government control of healthcare.
11)more government control of the everyday lives of seniors and children.
12)Tax the productive out of existence.

Now lets look at the parts of those definitions above that do the best job of summarizing socialism;

quote:
the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

"Collective principles"? "IMPERFECT IMPLEMENTATION"? What could possibly go wrong with Sanders' (and Democrats) proposals? Those of us who know something about history and economics and human nature, know that A LOT could.

More from the above definitions;

quote:
a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

"Work done" - what do you see more of in Sanders' proposals, incentives for production, or incentives to receive free stuff from government? What do you see more of in Green New Deal proposals, or Biden's current proposals, more incentive for production, or more incentive to receive free stuff?

marc9000 writes:

Do you need more links to show the clear relationship with today's Democrat party and socialism?

Obviously we need more than none,

100 links wouldn't be enough for you, if you can't see the clear relationship between AOC's proposals and Sanders' proposals, by simply being aware of what's going on around you.

Hard to tell from that if they’re going for full socialism or a mixed economy like Germany. In the short term they certainly aren’t going all the way. And they aren’t the Democratic Party.

It's hard to tell what they're going for, it's hard to tell what Democrats are going for, and it's hard to tell what Sanders (socialism) is going for. But one thing is for sure, all three of them equally go for climate change mandates above all else. Government control of economics. Everything described in the above definitions of socialism.

Since you’ve demonstrated that the Democratic Party isn’t socialist it obviously isn’t a fantasy.

Could you, or all the gang, show me just one thing in Sanders' 12 point list that today's Democrats are united in opposing? Just one? That wouldn't be near enough to differentiate between today's Democrats and socialism, but it would be a start. It would actually take 5 or 6 at least. But just one will cause me to disengage for now, and satisfy everyone here's hatred of my exercising my 1st amendment rights to ask these questions and express the opinion of not only myself, but close to half the U.S. population.

"Working towards a better future for all (with more government). - Socialists
"Build back better". (with more government) - Democrats.

Slightly different words, but that's all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 10-31-2021 6:38 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 11-01-2021 1:31 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 46 by xongsmith, posted 11-01-2021 2:43 AM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1254
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 43 of 79 (889060)
10-31-2021 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by kjsimons
10-31-2021 8:24 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
they want social programs that benefit citizens that need it and do not want the government to take over the means of production (i.e. actual Socialism).

They don't want to be involved in production, and even ownership, of (not yet developed) alternatives to fossil fuels? They have no proposals to subsidize those alternatives? You should get out more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by kjsimons, posted 10-31-2021 8:24 PM kjsimons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by kjsimons, posted 10-31-2021 9:39 PM marc9000 has responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 740
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 7.6


(2)
Message 44 of 79 (889061)
10-31-2021 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by marc9000
10-31-2021 9:29 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
Way to move the goal posts. Climate change is an issue that effects all people on the planet and so it behooves us to address it. This is not a socialist issue, this is a human issue as it affects all of us. WTF do you propose? Or is addressing actual issues with solutions socialist according to you? Grow TFU!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by marc9000, posted 10-31-2021 9:29 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by marc9000, posted 11-01-2021 5:27 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 45 of 79 (889063)
11-01-2021 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by marc9000
10-31-2021 9:24 PM


Re: What does the evidence show?
quote:
I suppose so, if you didn't read it, and you're unaware of current Democrat activity.

I suppose you mean if you DID read it. I am aware of the Democratic Party’s current policies. Which do not include large-scale nationalisations of any industry.

quote:
Democrat's current spending proposals with trillions in borrowed / printed money, Biden's "30 X 30" land confiscation proposal, Democrat's (including the "independent" Sander's war on fossil fuels), with the subsequent government "ownership and control of the means of production and distribution" (from the definitions above) and other Democrat proposals that are described word for word in the definitions above.

Obviously they are not about Government ownership of the means of production and distribution.

quote:
If you look at Democrat's "Green New Deal" proposals, you'll see exactly that.

Nope, no massive nationalisations there.

quote:
It's not obvious to those who know something about history, about the tactics of past tyrants to control and oppress their people. And none of those past tyrants had the giant CLIMATE CHANGE card in their hands to play, it's far bigger than any card past tyrants had. It's not obvious to those who know about the mindset of the U.S. founders as they structured the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

I get that you’re a big fan of tyranny, but that doesn’t grant you any special insights.

quote:
The nationalization of industry isn't done overnight, past tyrants that the U.S. founders were fully aware of have done that kind of takeover incrementally. Playing the "conservation" game is how incrementalism works. When the U.S. population is naturally increasing as it always has, combined with current unprecedented illegal immigration, when we're rapidly approaching the $30 trillion mark in debt, when the Taliban was handed major victory in its ability to threaten the U.S., common sense tells some of us that "conservation" really shouldn't be on top of the to-do list.

In other words they aren’t actually proposing socialism. You just assume that it will eventually get there, over many, many years. Your biased assumptions aren’t facts.

quote:
Opposed? Do you have evidence of this opposition? Name some things that Sanders proposes, that the Democrat leaders like AOC, Schumer, Pelosi, Biden and Harris vehemently oppose, and show me some links to liberal / Democrat websites that show the discussion about it.

AOC isn’t a leader. It’s well known that the Democratic Party establishment opposed Sanders bid for the Presidential nomination in 2016 and 2020. And since you’ve conveniently provided an example, Obama’s support for the TPP is contrary to Sander’s objection to such deals.

quote:
That's not a fact, because the fact is that he really does propose socialism. Let's look at Sanders' "12 point plan" that he has long had. Here's a link;

https://commonsensewonder.blogspot.com/...list-vt-has-12.htm


I had a look and I was right. (You didn’t think I’d be stupid enough to fall for your mischaracterisations, did you?).

Again, look at the lack of evidence. All you have is lies and a ‘slippery slope” assumption. No plans for massive nationalisation - even of industries where it makes sense. The means of production will remain firmly in private hands. Nothing more than a European style mixed economy (at most). That’s not what your definitions call “socialism”)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by marc9000, posted 10-31-2021 9:24 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
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