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Author Topic:   CATO Institute had a big IMMIGRATION AND NATIONAL IDENTITY survey, April 27, 2021
PaulK
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Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 32 of 137 (888199)
09-10-2021 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by LamarkNewAge
09-09-2021 8:50 PM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
LNA’s descent into dishonesty continues.

Here are links to the two posts
Message 2774
Message 2775

Note also that the issue of walls being “racist” was brought up by LNA - who was also trying to argue that the Democratic Party was calling for full amnesty for all illegal immigrants.

Let us also note that border security is not just about illegal immigration. Smuggling - especially drugs smuggling - is also an issue.

Finally let us note that LNA is continuing the far right strategy of conflating legal and illegal immigration. The Cato institute study is largely about legal immigration and border security should not be any obstacle to that.

Fuller quotes here:

Message 2774

That's just an issue you made up. The actual issue is that we should provide legal constitutional due process to those applying for asylum or refugee status, or to those who are in the country illegally.

I was against Obama's deportation policies then, and I'm still against them. I think many people feel the same way.

Again, no one meant all walls are racist. It's Trump's walls that are racist because he wants to build them not because they're the best border security solution but because they're a symbol of that racism for his base.

You're obviously getting your statements of what Democrats believe from Republicans. What Democrats want, what most reasonable people want, is appropriate border security for each stretch of border. Wherever we need walls we should build walls.

I, and I hope many others, will oppose all inhumane and antihumanitarian treatment of people at the border, including children.

Message 2775

El Paso is in far western Texas where the Rio Grande peters out. I would think they'd need a wall or fence or some kind of border security strategy there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-09-2021 8:50 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 09-10-2021 8:20 AM PaulK has taken no action
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:44 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 35 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:54 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 37 of 137 (888208)
09-10-2021 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 8:44 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
I was the one in favor of amnesty.

Irrelevant.

quote:
And you are dishonestly twisting Percy's response

Now that is a falsehood, and an obvious one. You will note that I was the one who provided links and more complete context.

quote:
He was attacking my accusations that the Democratic party was not doing enough to help immigrants. He did not like my positive references to Reagan's immigration views.

Percy was taking a more moderate position than your idea that illegal immigrants should be given automatic amnesty. I note that you don’t say a thing about legal immigrants in the post Percy was replying to. Which should really be the first concern in “supporting immigrants”. Fair and just treatment of illegal immigrants is still important - but Percy supports that, too.

quote:
(PERcy denied she was ever in favor of deportation during the 2014 "crisis")

Not in either of the posts you cited. The closest is:

I don't know if it's accurate or not, just that you're unable to support what you say. You just completely bollocks up your claim that Clinton favored detention by excerpting from an article that never mentioned detention.

Or did you mean this?

Fifth, nobody cares what Clinton said four years ago.

quote:
I was considering opposition to deportation of children a "good thing", to make it short.

You were arguing for open borders, and trying to pretend that the Democratic Party was more favourable to the idea than is justifiable based on your own quotes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:44 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:11 AM PaulK has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 40 of 137 (888212)
09-10-2021 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 8:54 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
And I was angry that the Democratic party was only talkingbabout offering amnesty to the 1.4 million children migrants.

Which does not justify misrepresentation or conflating legal and illegal immigration.

Nor does it counter the fact that you seem to be in favour of financial limitations on immigration - and call Democrats “anti-immigration” for opposing them (Message 26). (And I’d still love to know how the government would make illegal immigrants pay an immigration tax - how are they supposed to identify them as immigrants?)

quote:
The Democratic party talking line was all about the "Dreamers" and "children".

And there were sensible reasons for that.

quote:
I constantly, during the last 4 years, said the Democratic party sold out (politically) the other 10 million immigrants vulnerable to deportation. Democrats threw 1st generation immigrants (my favorite people) under the bus.

There are plenty of first generation legal immigrants. How are they “thrown under the bus”? Or are they not your “favourite people” at all?

quote:
(And amnesty was never a radical position, until the Democrats made it one. That is a fact. In 2016, 81% of Texas 2016 voters, supported a pathway to citizenship for ALL illegal immigrants. Only 15% opposed. This was the actual exit poll, from the day Trump got 52% against Clinton. I happily trumpeted that poll data)

A pathway to citizenship isn’t the same as a blanket amnesty.

quote:
So you are a very dishonest person, PaulK.

Funny how you can only make unsupported accusations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:54 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:22 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 42 of 137 (888215)
09-10-2021 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:06 AM


Re: For the record, the CATO study is about all 1st generation immigrants.
quote:
I was the one who brought up the fact that 1st generation immigrants pay $63 billion more in taxes than they get in social ssf spending programs.

Which includes legal immigrants.

quote:
PaulK lies when he says that the CATO study is not about illegal immigrants.

I did not say that. I said that it was largely about legal immigration.

Here is a link to the article on the report Cato Institute

There is one section mainly about illegal immigrants. But the points about immigration levels, about the immigration process, about hiring immigrants are all about legal immigrants.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:06 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:56 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 43 of 137 (888217)
09-10-2021 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:22 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
You are ignorant of how people, without Social Security numbers, can fill out a form to pay taxes.

Or I realise that there are ways around that. Such as using fake numbers or those issued to other people.

quote:
Your comments about me 'conflating' llegal and illegal immigrants are idiotic

Well now we’re seeing who is dishonest. You obviously do it. It is obviously a major problem in your position. So it is obviously important to raise it. When you say “1st generation immigrants” do you mean all of them or only the illegals? If you mean the latter you should say so. If not, then I’m still waiting to hear how 1st generation legal immigrants were “thrown under the bus”


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:22 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:53 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 48 of 137 (888223)
09-10-2021 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:53 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
On the thrown under the bus issue:

First of all, understand that I tend to look at public opinion polls that gauge the larger views of society


Then you should really mention the effect on the polls if it is what you are actually complaining about.

quote:
You earlier said that I made it look like Democrats are more supportive of open borders than they actually are. You were taking my poll readings about Americans having divided opinions on the rights of children to migrate here, and then you magically that into me supposedly saying the DNC and official Democratic office holders are somehow opposed to deportation of children

I did no such thing. But let us note that this has nothing to do with the question of how first generation legal immigrants could be “thrown under the bus” by “selling out” those “vulnerable to deportation” (which should not include legal immigrants).

quote:
As for your insistence that need to demonstrate the fact that 1st generation Americans are thrown under the bus, understand that first generation Americans are all immigrants.

You misrepresent me again. I make no such insistence. I only ask you to explain why a statement which seems to focus on illegal immigrants should be considered to apply to all first generation immigrants.

quote:
It is a fact that there will be 1 million immigrants (or lower) every year. The immigration levels affect the future immigration picture. Therefore the prospective 1st generation Americans-in-waiting are affected.

This hardly seems to address the point. It is far too vague and doesn’t even allege harm serious enough to justify the “thrown under the bus” claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:53 AM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 51 of 137 (888226)
09-10-2021 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:56 AM


Re: For the record, the CATO study is about all 1st generation immigrants.
quote:
I am talking about the cost of first generation immigrants study.

So you accused me of lying about a study I hadn’t even talked about.

quote:
It was in my immigration thread, from 2017. I thought I just saw it in the Trump Presidency thread.

dwise referenced this in his first post, here. But without a link.


And you didn’t even have a good reason for thinking that I was talking about it rather than the study in the title of this thread.

In other words your accusation was an outright lie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:56 AM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 52 of 137 (888227)
09-10-2021 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 10:11 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
Americans think that most immigrants are illegal anyway. Americans make no distinction. Many , but not most Americans, think that most Asians (immigrant or not) are 1st generation undocumented immigrants.

That only shows that there is a lot of racism in America.

quote:
PaulK keeps saying this poll is only about legal immigrants.

I did not say that. I have corrected you on this point already, so you have no excuse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:11 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 57 of 137 (888232)
09-10-2021 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 10:58 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
The brand new April 2021 poll is about ALL immigrants.

Much of it is about legal immigration. For instance the question about whether immigration procedures are too difficult is about legal immigration. The question about whether immigration should be banned is about legal immigration.

quote:
(-You attacked me for conflating immigrants with different immigration status, and you add specifically said this poll is about American views of legal immigrants. You deny your stupid obsession, now?)

Since I did not say that the poll “is about American views of legal immigrants” - I said it was largely about legal immigration - I certainly can deny that I have a “stupid obsession”.

quote:
Americans rarely worry about whether an immigrant is legal or illegal.

Racist Americans like to assume that all suspected immigrants are illegal immigrants. That’s hardly a good reason to ignore the distinction. Indeed, it is siding with the racists.

quote:
You said the 2021 poll gives you no reason to assume that "immigrants" also includes illegal immigrants.

I certainly did not.

quote:
I would urge you to look closer. Those polled were asked questions that should clue you in. Read the questions carefully.

I would urge you to stop lying about what I have said. And to follow your own advice, because you will find that many of the questions deal with legal immigration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:58 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 11:28 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 59 of 137 (888234)
09-10-2021 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 11:28 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
Let me help you here, PaulK

How?

quote:
1st generation immigrants (the only actual immigrants) themselves think 60% of Hispanic immigrants are illegal. They as also think 41% of Asians are illegal.

2ng generation immigrants (children of an immigrant parent) think 52% of Hispanic immigrants are illegal and 35% of Asian immigrants are illegal.

That should clue you in that 26% of those polled (first & 2and generation immigrants are 26% of the nation) consider immigrants to include illegals.


I never said that the general class of immigrants did not include illegals. Obviously it does - and these quotes are hardly a good way of making that case.

Let me help you. I get that you are going to lie about me - as you have just done. That is not going to persuade me to run away. It just convinces me that you are a vile person.

quote:
So, the poll questions about "immigrants" will mean that BOTH illegal & legal immigrants are included in the word's definition, unless otherwise stated.

So? It doesn’t change the fact that illegal immigrants are those who have not gone through the procedures for legal immigration. It doesn’t change the fact that calls for increases in immigration mean increasing legal immigration. It doesn’t change the fact that adding a requirement on immigrants to promise not to use social security is a requirement placed on legal immigrants.

quote:
Does that help clear up your confusion?

There is no confusion to clear up. I know that you are a lying shit who loves to misrepresent those who disagree.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 11:28 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:07 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 64 of 137 (888240)
09-10-2021 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 12:07 PM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
You keep on bringing up dishonest irrelevancies to clutter and confuse the point

That more accurately describes your behaviour.

quote:
(You started participating in the thread, by simply quoting Percy's dishonest evasions of my evidence, in The Trump Presidency Thread. I quoted Hillary Clinton telling Christiane Amanpour, in 2014, that she would d er port the children held in custody. But Percy continued to lie)

I entered the thread to correct your misrepresentation of Percy’s post, providing links and placing the quotes in context. This is a fine example of a “dishonest irrelevancy”.

quote:
You lied by claiming I was attacking Hillary Clinton's new political position AGAINST DEPORTATION, in the 2016 Univision debate. I was not against her ultimate position against deportation, but Ramos had to beat it out of her. You said I was using her campaign position to smear Democrats as "amnesty" supporters. Percy did not lie to the level you did)

I think you mean that I caught you lying about what Percy had said. That’s the only references to Clinton in my posts - and those are quotes from Percy’s post.

quote:
This last discussion has do with you saying that I I conflated illegal and illegal immigration…

Which you certainly did.

quote:
… You say that I put all under the term "immigrant"…

Not true. I said that you seem to count all immigrants as illegal. You even defended that by asserting that many Americans see no difference.

quote:
…and you linked to the 2021 poll, and said you saw nothing in the text that should cause us to consider the term "immigration", in the questions, to invlude illegal immigration

I certainly did not. I said that the poll was largely about legal immigration. “Largely” does not mean “entirely”, and I even provided examples - none of which you disputed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:07 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:40 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 66 of 137 (888242)
09-10-2021 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 12:14 PM


Re: PaulK started this thread, in post 31, by telling blatant lies.
quote:
Perhaps we should spend the whole thread on responding to lies?

I keep telling you that if you want me to stop responding lying about me is not the way to do it.

quote:
That is what I have had to do.

Really,no. I’ve been doing it a lot.

quote:
He said I was saying Democrats were in favor of amnesty.

You certainly argued that calling the wall racist meant opposing borders.

( The right to NOT be walled off by a border check is another issue. Democrats are on the record calling walls "racist", and we all know walls are just a symbol of borders)

Democrats will be in power again, and we will see if "walls are racist" (or "The Wall is racist") will be matched with sincerity in policymaking. Walls are just a symbol of borders. Will Democrats seriously challenge borders?

Message 2770
Of course that isn’t true - the motivation for Trump’s wall was clearly racist, for one thing.

quote:
PaulK is a dishonest disruptor.

And you aren’t? You have told far more lies than I have.

quote:
I ask that he be removed from the discussion

Because your constant lying failed to drive me away?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:14 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:58 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 67 of 137 (888243)
09-10-2021 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 12:40 PM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
So now I call all immigrants, illegal immigrants?

Now? It’s not a new point. You use the general word “immigrants” when you seem to be only talking about illegals.

When you said that the Democratic Party was not doing enough to help immigrants you said nothing about legal immigrants - it was all about illegals (Message 34). When you said that the Democrats “threw 1st generation immigrants under the bus” you’ve never explained how that applies to legal immigrants (Message 35)- and the use of “vulnerable to deportation” certainly makes it seem as if you only meant illegals.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:40 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 69 of 137 (888246)
09-10-2021 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 12:58 PM


Re: PaulK started this thread, in post 31, by telling blatant lies.
quote:
Look,clown.
I was saying Democrats would flip flop.

That doesn’t really help you.

quote:
I was also attacking the idea of hard borders. The fact that some Democrats call the wall racist hardly says anything about the larger Democratic position.

As I’ve shown you equated the idea that the wall was racist with the idea that borders are racist. That isn’t necessarily true - the fact that Trump introduced his idea of a wall between the US and Mexico with a racist attack on Mexicans is a good reason for calling that wall racist.

quote:
(Democrats attacked the Trump border wall, generally, but Biden wont take down any of it. He just says 'not another foot

As I recall most of the wall actually built only replaced existing barriers. Why spend money taking it down if a barrier is wanted there?
(Wikipedia agrees:

The U.S. built new barriers along 455 miles (732 km),[6][7][8] 49 miles (79 km) of which previously had no barrier.[7][8] Much of the remainder consists of 30-foot-tall (9.1 m) steel fencing where previously there had been smaller fencing to deter automobiles.
)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:58 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 2:44 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17166
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 73 of 137 (888252)
09-10-2021 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 2:44 PM


Re: PaulK started this thread, in post 31, by telling blatant lies.
quote:
Democrats, including Pelosi, called the wall racist. Not all, or most, Democrats called it racist.

But the vast majority of Democrats attacked the wall.


That is not in question, is it? The question is what they meant by it. And you have provided no support at all for your claim that they meant that border security was inherently racist.

quote:
You did not back up your claim that most of Trump's wall simply replaced existing barriers.

You mean apart from the Wikipedia quote that indicated that only out of the 455 miles built, all but 49 replaced existing barriers.

quote:
Democrats flip flopped, but the attack on Trump was just a utilitarian political tactic.

If they meant what you said. If on the other hand they had the view that Percy and I attribute to them their opposition simply requires that building efforts halt. As they have done. So it comes down to you to support your claim.

quote:
Concern for the immigrants was not directly tied to the wall. Defeating Trump was the motive for attacking his wall.

Or objections to Trump’s racist speech, or to the waste of resources on a disruptive vanity project, or to the new barriers which were never built and which will not be built under Biden. Any and all of these are valid and do not require more action (indeed financial prudence would require keeping the sections where barriers are wanted rather than spending more money to tear it down and then build different barriers). And all seem more likely than an inherent objection to barriers at the border.

quote:
The wall will escape being torn down, it seems

The parts which were actually built - which do not include the most controversial sections.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 2:44 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 3:51 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 75 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 4:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
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