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Author Topic:   CATO Institute had a big IMMIGRATION AND NATIONAL IDENTITY survey, April 27, 2021
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 46 of 129 (888221)
09-10-2021 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by LamarkNewAge
09-09-2021 8:22 PM


Re: The INVERSE RELATIONSHIP rule among public immigration level support.
LamarkNewAge writes:

Show where I called for benefit moratoriums.

Label it however you like, that's the net effect. You're in favor of benefits for immigrants but only if they pay for them themselves through special taxes that only they themselves pay. If you bill someone for their benefits then they're not benefits. In effect it's a moratorium on benefits for as long as you're taxing them for them.

You have been screaming for years about the "problem" of illegal immigration. And the immigrants were clearly, in and of themselves, the problem, to you.

You're confusing me with someone else, I have no idea who.

(You seem to be happy with 1 million per year immigration levels.)

Uh, no. I have no idea where you're getting this.

The poll question you cited in Message 26 is poorly phrased because it isn't possible to interpret the responses:

Would you favor or oppose increasing immigration to the U.S. if immigrants had to prove before entering that they would not use government welfare services?

If asked this question I would have to pass. It wouldn't be possible to register my objection to making potential immigrants prove whether they'd need government services in just a yes or no response. I'm in favor of increased immigration, and I'm against raising additional barriers to immigration.

The problem I'm having with your position is that you're using the excuse of a particular poll to justify advocacy of anti-immigrant policies.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-09-2021 8:22 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:07 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1947
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 129 (888222)
09-10-2021 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
09-10-2021 10:01 AM


Re: The INVERSE RELATIONSHIP rule among public immigration level support.
There was the poll which asked about support or opposition to government financial assistance to immigrants.

47% supported

53% opposed

Then the poll which asked about a trade-off, which offered a landmark INCREASE on immigration levels, with immigrants having to prove they have the financial assistance option taken off the table

58% supported

41% opposed

I have made it VERY clear that I am one of the 47%, and from just about every early post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 09-10-2021 10:01 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 48 of 129 (888223)
09-10-2021 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:53 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
quote:
On the thrown under the bus issue:

First of all, understand that I tend to look at public opinion polls that gauge the larger views of society


Then you should really mention the effect on the polls if it is what you are actually complaining about.

quote:
You earlier said that I made it look like Democrats are more supportive of open borders than they actually are. You were taking my poll readings about Americans having divided opinions on the rights of children to migrate here, and then you magically that into me supposedly saying the DNC and official Democratic office holders are somehow opposed to deportation of children

I did no such thing. But let us note that this has nothing to do with the question of how first generation legal immigrants could be “thrown under the bus” by “selling out” those “vulnerable to deportation” (which should not include legal immigrants).

quote:
As for your insistence that need to demonstrate the fact that 1st generation Americans are thrown under the bus, understand that first generation Americans are all immigrants.

You misrepresent me again. I make no such insistence. I only ask you to explain why a statement which seems to focus on illegal immigrants should be considered to apply to all first generation immigrants.

quote:
It is a fact that there will be 1 million immigrants (or lower) every year. The immigration levels affect the future immigration picture. Therefore the prospective 1st generation Americans-in-waiting are affected.

This hardly seems to address the point. It is far too vague and doesn’t even allege harm serious enough to justify the “thrown under the bus” claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:53 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1947
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 49 of 129 (888224)
09-10-2021 10:11 AM


The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
Not just legal immigrants.

Americans think that most immigrants are illegal anyway. Americans make no distinction. Many , but not most Americans, think that most Asians (immigrant or not) are 1st generation undocumented immigrants.

PaulK keeps saying this poll is only about legal immigrants.


Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 10:17 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 50 of 129 (888225)
09-10-2021 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by LamarkNewAge
09-09-2021 8:50 PM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
Wow, blatantly obvious dishonesty. A big tip-of-the-hat to PaulK in Message 32 for calling it out and providing accurate information.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-09-2021 8:50 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 51 of 129 (888226)
09-10-2021 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 9:56 AM


Re: For the record, the CATO study is about all 1st generation immigrants.
quote:
I am talking about the cost of first generation immigrants study.

So you accused me of lying about a study I hadn’t even talked about.

quote:
It was in my immigration thread, from 2017. I thought I just saw it in the Trump Presidency thread.

dwise referenced this in his first post, here. But without a link.


And you didn’t even have a good reason for thinking that I was talking about it rather than the study in the title of this thread.

In other words your accusation was an outright lie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 9:56 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 52 of 129 (888227)
09-10-2021 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 10:11 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
Americans think that most immigrants are illegal anyway. Americans make no distinction. Many , but not most Americans, think that most Asians (immigrant or not) are 1st generation undocumented immigrants.

That only shows that there is a lot of racism in America.

quote:
PaulK keeps saying this poll is only about legal immigrants.

I did not say that. I have corrected you on this point already, so you have no excuse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:11 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:58 AM PaulK has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20219
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 53 of 129 (888228)
09-10-2021 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 8:58 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
LamarkNewAge writes:

Percy said there was a "need" for walls wherever a "natural barrier" (like a river) was not present.

I wrote about walls a lot. A dishonest person willing to cherry pick quotes, as you apparently are, can make anyone seem to say anything.

My actual position on walls is that I have a preference for technology but in places where it's determined that we need walls then we should build walls. The Trump position that I argued against was, "If it's a border then it needs a wall." Trump even initiated efforts to build walls along the Rio Grande, which is already a security barrier. Maybe Jar knows the status of Trump's border wall efforts along the river, which were pretty draconian, for example:

  • Taking private property along the river by eminent domain to build the wall
  • Leaving entire neighborhoods on the far side of the wall
  • Ignoring all environmental considerations

Tell the truth, you'll feel better.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 8:58 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:52 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 56 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 11:06 AM Percy has responded
 Message 61 by jar, posted 09-10-2021 12:07 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1947
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 54 of 129 (888229)
09-10-2021 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
09-10-2021 10:29 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
I will be happy to quote your past posts. It will come later, because, I am about to go to work. I need to use a pencil when quoting.

You will probably say the quotes are out of context. Wont stop me showing you what your positions were in the decisive period that they mattered.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 09-10-2021 10:29 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1947
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 55 of 129 (888230)
09-10-2021 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by PaulK
09-10-2021 10:17 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
The brand new April 2021 poll is about ALL immigrants.

(-You attacked me for conflating immigrants with different immigration status, and you add specifically said this poll is about American views of legal immigrants. You deny your stupid obsession, now?)

Americans rarely worry about whether an immigrant is legal or illegal.

You said the 2021 poll gives you no reason to assume that "immigrants" also includes illegal immigrants.

I would urge you to look closer. Those polled were asked questions that should clue you in. Read the questions carefully.

(


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 10:17 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 11:14 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1947
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 56 of 129 (888231)
09-10-2021 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Percy
09-10-2021 10:29 AM


Re: Percy's support for border walls documented.
Do you deny that you said that border lands west of the Rio Grande need a wall?

Do you deny that you felt that any border land, in Texas, will need either the river or a wall?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Percy, posted 09-10-2021 10:29 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Percy, posted 09-10-2021 2:35 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 57 of 129 (888232)
09-10-2021 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 10:58 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
The brand new April 2021 poll is about ALL immigrants.

Much of it is about legal immigration. For instance the question about whether immigration procedures are too difficult is about legal immigration. The question about whether immigration should be banned is about legal immigration.

quote:
(-You attacked me for conflating immigrants with different immigration status, and you add specifically said this poll is about American views of legal immigrants. You deny your stupid obsession, now?)

Since I did not say that the poll “is about American views of legal immigrants” - I said it was largely about legal immigration - I certainly can deny that I have a “stupid obsession”.

quote:
Americans rarely worry about whether an immigrant is legal or illegal.

Racist Americans like to assume that all suspected immigrants are illegal immigrants. That’s hardly a good reason to ignore the distinction. Indeed, it is siding with the racists.

quote:
You said the 2021 poll gives you no reason to assume that "immigrants" also includes illegal immigrants.

I certainly did not.

quote:
I would urge you to look closer. Those polled were asked questions that should clue you in. Read the questions carefully.

I would urge you to stop lying about what I have said. And to follow your own advice, because you will find that many of the questions deal with legal immigration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 10:58 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 11:28 AM PaulK has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1947
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 58 of 129 (888233)
09-10-2021 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by PaulK
09-10-2021 11:14 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
Let me help you here, PaulK

1st generation immigrants (the only actual immigrants) themselves think 60% of Hispanic immigrants are illegal. They as also think 41% of Asians are illegal.

2ng generation immigrants (children of an immigrant parent) think 52% of Hispanic immigrants are illegal and 35% of Asian immigrants are illegal.

That should clue you in that 26% of those polled (first & 2and generation immigrants are 26% of the nation) consider immigrants to include illegals.

What about the other 74% of us?

Third generation Americans or higher think 49% of Hispanic immigrants are illegal and 26% of Asians are.

So, the poll questions about "immigrants" will mean that BOTH illegal & legal immigrants are included in the word's definition, unless otherwise stated.

Does that help clear up your confusion?

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 11:14 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 11:45 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16962
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 59 of 129 (888234)
09-10-2021 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by LamarkNewAge
09-10-2021 11:28 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
quote:
Let me help you here, PaulK

How?

quote:
1st generation immigrants (the only actual immigrants) themselves think 60% of Hispanic immigrants are illegal. They as also think 41% of Asians are illegal.

2ng generation immigrants (children of an immigrant parent) think 52% of Hispanic immigrants are illegal and 35% of Asian immigrants are illegal.

That should clue you in that 26% of those polled (first & 2and generation immigrants are 26% of the nation) consider immigrants to include illegals.


I never said that the general class of immigrants did not include illegals. Obviously it does - and these quotes are hardly a good way of making that case.

Let me help you. I get that you are going to lie about me - as you have just done. That is not going to persuade me to run away. It just convinces me that you are a vile person.

quote:
So, the poll questions about "immigrants" will mean that BOTH illegal & legal immigrants are included in the word's definition, unless otherwise stated.

So? It doesn’t change the fact that illegal immigrants are those who have not gone through the procedures for legal immigration. It doesn’t change the fact that calls for increases in immigration mean increasing legal immigration. It doesn’t change the fact that adding a requirement on immigrants to promise not to use social security is a requirement placed on legal immigrants.

quote:
Does that help clear up your confusion?

There is no confusion to clear up. I know that you are a lying shit who loves to misrepresent those who disagree.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 11:28 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-10-2021 12:07 PM PaulK has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1947
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 60 of 129 (888235)
09-10-2021 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by PaulK
09-10-2021 11:45 AM


Re: The CATO poll is about all immigrants.
You keep on bringing up dishonest irrelevancies to clutter and confuse the point.

(You started participating in the thread, by simply quoting Percy's dishonest evasions of my evidence, in The Trump Presidency Thread. I quoted Hillary Clinton telling Christiane Amanpour, in 2014, that she would d er port the children held in custody. But Percy continued to lie)

(You lied by claiming I was attacking Hillary Clinton's new political position AGAINST DEPORTATION, in the 2016 Univision debate. I was not against her ultimate position against deportation, but Ramos had to beat it out of her. You said I was using her campaign position to smear Democrats as "amnesty" supporters. Percy did not lie to the level you did)

(And I support amnesty but said the Democratic party was a deportation party)

This last discussion has do with you saying that I I conflated illegal and illegal immigration. You say that I put all under the term "immigrant", and you linked to the 2021 poll, and said you saw nothing in the text that should cause us to consider the term "immigration", in the questions, to invlude illegal immigration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 11:45 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 09-10-2021 12:09 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 64 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2021 12:31 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

  
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