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Author | Topic: Testing The Financial Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes: Tax them all you want. You still will have an unpayable National Debt. Tangle writes: I'm all for that. One of my best friends, politically Democratic and moderately liberal, says that he wouldnt mind being taxed more if it would help the country-at-large. You just can't bring yourself to say that people - whoever they are - should pay their fair share of tax can you? You don't actually want a fair society, a Christian society, where people all chip in for the common good at all do you? The problem is that we are a secular society (not a problem in itself) that has other spirits running the place other than the Holy one. (But of course you call such talk madness.
Phat writes: A tax increase for the wealthy won't solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused. Tangle writes: This is what baffles me about you. You claim to have some knowledge and insight into the financial system and how it works, but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
I couldn't care less about the crap that you're obsessing about today, the point is to imagine a fair system and implement it. After that, you might find that other things become possible too. Tangle writes: I agree. But we can't go on wrestling in a burning house. ...the point is to imagine a fair system and implement it.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.
And you have yet to explain why this is an issue or proposed any other realistic system. You fail to realize that value and worth are man-made concepts. Commodities of any type are subject to price manipulation. Look at diamonds. There value and perceived worth is artificially manipulated.You just continue to show that facts and data mean nothing to you. But a slick youtube video is your new guide star. You make a new subtopic heading and then say nothing about it in your post. Your rock is lonely crawl back to it. BTW the US taking on debt at .5% or lower interest is now being shown to be brilliant. Wonder if you can figure out why. We need a new billion dollar bridge connecting MN and WI, do you think that should only be built once the money is in the bank? What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
See my other topic with this same subheading.
BTW the US taking on debt at .5% or lower interest is now being shown to be brilliant. It is not brilliant. It is madness in a play performed by idiots imagining themselves to be creators.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: The problem is that we are a secular society (not a problem in itself) that has other spirits running the place other than the Holy one. (But of course you call such talk madness. I call that stupidity. Rank stupidity. And it makes me really angry. You believe in spooks, demons, gods and whatever, but you also call yourself a Christian, so behave like one - tax all according to their ability to earn. Only evil cunts like Trump want an unequal society so that they can exploit it for themselves and they rely on the gullible like you to do it. Be a Christian Phat, a real one, just give it a go, you'll like it.
This is what baffles me about you. You claim to have some knowledge and insight into the financial system and how it works, but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people. I have a masters degree in business and have run my own business for 20 years so I do have a handle on financial system but I couldn't give a flying fart about fiat currencies and even less about what an uneducated store supervisor thinks he's learnt about them from a YouTube video. For god's sake Phat, try "do as you would be done by" for a while. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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So you don't actually believe in actual capitalism, just the right wing imitation of it. Also, I see you ignored the majority of what I posted. Not surprised you always do
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Just wondering what you mean by "Democratically appointed". A tax increase for the wealthy wont solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused. Do you mean "democratically appointed"? Because "democratic" and "appointed" are pretty much opposites. Or do you mean "appointed by Democrats"? Because, if you do, I'd like to point out, once again, that you ALWAYS back Republicans and you NEVER back Democrats, Mr. Doesn't-Know-What-Moderate-Means. Here's a quick lesson in American government for you: The US has1. the Executive branch, which may Be Democrat or Republican 2. the Legislative branch, which is subdivided into a. the House of Representatives, which may Be Democrat or Republican b. the Senate, which may Be Democrat or Republican So... there are THREE entities, which may add up to Democrat-Democrat-Democrat, Democrat-Republican-Democrat, Democrat-Republican-Republican, etc. So... it's pretty hard to blame the debt on one party. But YOU seem to be able to attach blame to the Democrats, Mr. Doesn't-Know-What-Moderate-Means. SO show us HOW the Democrats are responsible for the debt. (Another factor, just to put the icing on the cake, is that sometimes there is a NEED for borrowing - a hurricane submerges a major city, for example. So the justification for the debt rising gets even more complex.) So SHOW us.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5946 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5
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SO show us HOW the Democrats are responsible for the debt. As I recall, Dubya (a Republican) got us into two major wars without providing for how to pay for those wars. The singular major accomplishment of the Trump Administration was the massive 2017 Tax Scam for the rich which blew a massive hole in the debt again without any provision for paying for it. Contrasted with that was Biden's two major bills which included ways to pay for them. Indeed, there was much discussion and negotiating over how to pay for these measures. We have seen this pattern for the past decades, in which a Republican administration ruins the economy, leaving it to the next president, a Democrat, to clean up their mess and get the economy back on track, just to be followed by yet another Republican president who ruins the economy yet again. Obviously, Democrats are by far much better at running the economy than that Republicans. And it's the Republicans who are by far more responsible for the size of the debt.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
When somebody who knows the subject is "oblivious" to something, maybe that something is not significant. You [Tangle] claim to have some knowledge and insight into the financial system and how it works, but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4409 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Phat writes: but you seem oblivious to the failure of fiat currencies backed by nothing except the people. Can you name any currency that failed that was backed by the people? I think if you study some actual history you will find that fiat currencies that failed did so because the government that issued them was failing and that they had actually lost the backing of the people. Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned! What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I did some online fact checking from various sources. Here is what I found.
Fact-check: Are Democrats responsible for the growth of the national debt? ( Jon Greenberg, PolitiFact.com ) Verdict: Mixed but fefinitely not one-sided. ************** What’s the National Debt by President? To wit: ****************************************************************** Keep in mind that presidents generally don’t have any control over the budget during their first year in office because it’s already set in stone by the previous president.[3] We adjusted the figures to account for this fact. Here’s how each president has contributed to that debt since the turn of the 20th century[4-7]: Joe Biden (D) 2021 - present $1.84 trillion 6.33%Donald Trump (R)2017 - 2021 $8.2 trillion 40.43% Barack Obama (D)2009 - 2017 $8.34 trillion 69.98% Dubya Bus(R) 2001 -2009 $6.1 trillion 105.08% Bill Clinton (D) 1993 - 2001 $1.4 trillion 31.64% H.W. Bush (R) 1989 - 1993 $1.55 trillion 54.39% Ronald Reagan(R)1981 - 1989 $1.86 trillion 186.36% Jimmy Carter(D) 1977 - 1981 $299 billion 42.79% Gerald Ford(R) 1974 - 1977 $223.8 billion 47.11% Richard Nixon(R) 1969 - 1974 $121.3 billion 34.3% LBJ (D) -1963 - 1969 $42 billion 13.48% JFK (D) 1961 - 1963 $22.7 billion 7.87% Eisenhower(R) 1953 - 1961 $22.9 billion 8.61% Harry S. Truman(D)1945 - 1953 $7.4 billion 2.86% Franklin Roosevelt(D)1933 -1945 $236.1 billion 1,047.73% Herbert Hoover 1929 - 1933 $5.6 billion 33.12% Calvin Coolidge 1923 - 1929 -$5.42 billion -24.24% Warren G. Harding 1921 - 1923 -$1.63 billion -6.79% Woodrow Wilson 1913 - 1921 $21 billion 722.21% William H. Taft 1909 - 1913 $276.7 million 10.48% Theodore Roosevelt 1901 - 1909 $502.6 million 23.52% It looks pretty evenly mixed.The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Record Date Debt Held by the Public Intragovernmental Holdings Total Public Debt 1/3/2023 $24,507,554,337,075. $6,843,631,783,954. $31,351,186,121,029. There is no way that such a figure is sustainable if it increases year after year more than the tax revenueThe most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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Even when you have facts and figures laid out in front of you, you are still incapable of looking at the data and coming to a non-partisan conclusion.
It looks pretty evenly mixed.
The Republican addition to the debt is 1/2 again as much as what the Democrats added. That is far from evenly mixed. From your first source.
quote: The government has had debt since before it was officially formed. Our economy is big enough to handle the debt load. Is it something that needs to be controlled? Yes. Is it something to panic about? No. The debt cannot and should not be eliminated. The world and US economy would not be able to handle or survive massive debt reduction. There are too many other things(like housing and feeding people) that are much more important.What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Personal incredulity means nothing. Make a valid argument with legitimate sources.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And yet you said in Message 148, "A tax increase for the wealthy wont solve the fiscal problems that a Democratically appointed Federal Reserve has caused. The Democrats will get rightly blamed for the next economic crash." t looks pretty evenly mixed. You have contradicted your own claim. And you have also failed to show that, "a tax increase for the wealthy wont solve the fiscal problems...."Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Theo writes: Then why is the debt growing exponentially? Heck, we cant even handle the deficeit! You do know the difference,don't you?
The government has had debt since before it was officially formed. Our economy is big enough to handle the debt load. Is it something that needs to be controlled? Yes. Is it something to panic about? No. The debt cannot and should not be eliminated. Lets examine global debt for a moment.
Riding the Global Debt Rollercoaster IMF: The world and US economy would not be able to handle or survive massive debt reduction. There are too many other things(like housing and feeding people) that are much more important. So in other words, lets all go into debt for a problem that wont go away. Do you really think that an ever increasing debt is the inevitable status of global fiat money economies? And if so, why is it necessary? I sometimes think that the Bible will be proven right and that all of us will be perpetually on the hook for paying the bill off.(...cannot buy or sell without the mark. Without being linked into a socialist "democratic" system of human obligation. Which is why I defend private property rights. Even the Bible tells us to 2 Cor 9:6-8 writes: Government should never mandate compulsory giving beyond reasonable taxation. And if the debt becomes unsustainable, we all should simply agree to wipe the slate clean rather than be under bondage to some socialist "humanitarian" bill.
6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894). When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy Democrats should not be the only party. Respect the two-party system. -Phat, in December 2022 We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
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