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Author Topic:   Religious Liberty Quiz
PaulK
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Posts: 17033
Joined: 01-10-2003
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(3)
Message 16 of 80 (889013)
10-29-2021 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-28-2021 11:26 AM


So let us consider some points.

First, it seems obvious that we don’t want judges to have much say in whether a religious objection is valid or not. But if we rule out any say, a “yes” answer means that pretty much anyone can claim the exemption.

Second, even before we consider the first point it is obvious that we should not let religious belief become a carte blanche to ignore the law.

Third if we really support religious liberty we shouldn’t give privileges that will favour the dominant religion over others. The rights of minority religions are in more need of protection.

Considering these points together, if we’re going to allow religious exemptions to any law we ought to be asking ourselves whether it’s worth having the law at all. It’s better not to have a law than have exemptions - and if we do have exemptions they’d better be narrow.

And that leads to a fourth point. If you want to say “it depends” it better not “depend” on anything that will work in favour of majority religions or allow minority religions to be denied their exemptions.

So, some of these are pretty obvious. We - or rather, you Americans - shouldn’t be making children say the Pledge of Allegiance at all. There’s no need for a special right in that case. It’s equally obvious that religious organisations shouldn’t be allowed to ignore workplace safety regulations. The question of polygamy isn’t much harder - it certainly shouldn’t be a religious exemption, you either allow it or you don’t. As things are now it’s very open to abuse and shouldn’t be allowed. If there’s a wholesale reform of marriage law - and I think there should be - maybe a solution can be crafted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-28-2021 11:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2338
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 17 of 80 (889015)
10-29-2021 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
10-28-2021 4:09 PM


Re: Freedom From (or Of) Religion
Phat writes:

But lets get back to Phats topic and what ole Phat thinks about these questions, shall we?

I'm game.

1) Students should have a religious right not to say the Pledge of Allegiance. I agree that they should have a right, period. Like nwr says.

Obviously agree. My daughter refused to say the Texas Pledge of Allegiance in HS because Fuck Texas.

2) Service personnel on military bases should be permitted religiously mandated headwear regardless of uniform dress codes. Yes, but only during Chapel. Military responsibilities and protocols over ride religious rights.

Disagree, as a veteran I say you can wear whatever headwear you want anytime you want provided it does not interfere with the mission (it's not easy fitting a gas mask over a turban).

3) Incarcerated persons should be permitted religiously mandated headwear regardless of prison dress codes. Again, this is under the rules of the state. I would suppose that during times of solitude or worship they can wear what they want...but what if some guy claimed he had a religious right to be nude? See the complexities of this stuff?

If someone wants to parade around nude in prison,who cares if they drop the soap.

3) Incarcerated persons should be permitted religiously mandated headwear regardless of prison dress codes. Again, this is under the rules of the state. I would suppose that during times of solitude or worship they can wear what they want...but what if some guy claimed he had a religious right to be nude? See the complexities of this stuff?

4) Children should have a religious right to attend school without being vaccinated. This gets into the issue of whether the state has a social responsibility to protect other kids (yes) and whether the state can override your beliefs (yes to a limited degree when the safety of others is involved.) But the whole secular freedom from religion thing is itself a sub-topic. Can of worms. Hornets' nest.

Everyone is their brother's keeper. Vax, quarantine, or deport.

5) Individuals should have the right to proselytize in public spaces regardless of anti-solicitation ordinances. On public property, yes. But they must not have the right to hate speech. Offending others using Jesus' name is only offending your demons anyway!

Public spaces only if not inciting violence.

6) Individuals should have the right to proselytize in semipublic spaces like shopping malls and baseball stadiums. Yes, but no more than any other vendor hawking hot dogs and beer!

Owners of private property have the right to police such property as they see fit. Are you anti-Capitalist?

7) Teacher-led prayer should be permitted in public schools. Only if every student gets a note permitting them to listen. And prayer to whom? Odin? BigFoot? Leprechauns??? I don't think so!

Never. Teacher-led implies the sanction gf the state.

8) Student-led prayer should be permitted at public school assemblies. Yes if it is brief and voluntary and that all religions can participate in their own groups. Keyword: Brief.

Never(see above)

9) Business owners should have a religious right to refuse service to customers on the basis of gender. Nope. Service can only be refused due to offensive behavior by the customer.

Bingo. Phat is thy brother's keeper.

10) Business owners should have a religious right to refuse service to customers on the basis of race. No. Obviously not.

Good call.

11) Pharmacists should have a religious right to refuse to sell contraceptive products to customers. \[b\]Again, no. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars, including the right to engage in business.

If pharmacists refuse to sell contraceptives, then they should be made freely available.

12) Houses of worship should be exempt from zoning regulations. The question is why?

Houses of whorship that do not remit 80% to the ill and destitute

13) Religious organizations should be exempt from employment anti-discrimination laws. \[b\] No in most circumstances. I cant at the moment think of any exceptions.

Fine, discriminate and lose tax exempt status.

14) Religious organizations should be exempt from workplace safety regulations.NO!

Agreed

15) Religious exemptions from vaccination mandates should be allowed under any circumstances. Vaccinations are a public health issue. People can abstain, but then must wear masks in public and social distance.

Vax, quarantine, or deport.

16) Religious exemptions from vaccination mandates should be allowed if medical exemptions are allowed.

Vax, quarantine, or deport.

17) Individuals should have a religious right not to work on their holy days. Yes, within reasonable accommodation limits.

Agreed

18) Religious organizations should have the same right to apply for government funding that secular organizations have. YES.

NO. if such funding does nothing to improve life, then no funding.

19) Women should have a religious right to obtain an abortion regardless of government restrictions. As long as they pay for it...unless they were raped.

Women should be able to obtain an abortio9n for free. Poverty is no excuse for slavery.

20) Indigenous peoples should have a religious right to refuse infrastructure construction on land they deem sacred. depends whose land it legally is.

Technically, isn't the land already theirs by first claims?

21) Polygamy should be permitted as a religious right.I suppose. Knock yourselves out.

Who cares?

22) Publicly traded companies should have religious rights. what rights are we talking about?

Good question. I suppose under the religion of capitalism Amazon and Tesla are denominations.

23) Religious organizations should have the right to refuse to cover contraceptive services in their health insurance plans. depends how much of a cost increase it is.

Health insurance is a right.

24) For-profit companies should have a religious right to refuse to cover contraceptive services in their health insurance plans.\[b\] wait a minute...are corporations people? nonetheless yes they do.

Health insurance is a right. If any organization refuses to provide health insurance it is incumbent on the government to do so. Like in civilized countries like Canada and New Zealand.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 10-28-2021 4:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17033
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 18 of 80 (889016)
10-29-2021 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
10-28-2021 4:09 PM


A can of worms ?
quote:
But the whole secular freedom from religion thing is itself a sub-topic. Can of worms. Hornets' nest.

This seems a very strange claim.

What makes it a “can of worms”? Unless “freedom of religion” is seen primarily as special privileges for the religious - and it should not be - then it should be a natural consequence.

Surely everyone should be free from religions they don’t follow. Christians should not be subject to Sharia law, for instance. And if you respect freedom of belief at all obviously nobody should be penalised for not having a religion, let alone be forced into subscribing to one, even nominally.


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 Message 12 by Phat, posted 10-28-2021 4:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
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Posts: 6083
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 19 of 80 (889019)
10-30-2021 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-28-2021 11:26 AM


1) Students should have a religious right not to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

What’s the religious BS? This is a secular right. You have the right to not pledge for whatever reason.

2) Service personnel on military bases should be permitted religiously mandated headwear regardless of uniform dress codes.

On base, yes. In combat training … like combat, all bets are off.

3) Incarcerated persons should be permitted religiously mandated headwear regardless of prison dress codes.

Incarceration does not negate humanity. Humans have that right regardless of domicile.

4) Children should have a religious right to attend school without being vaccinated.

No. When it comes to health and safety in the public schools your religion stops at the school house door.

5) Individuals should have the right to proselytize in public spaces regardless of anti-solicitation ordinances.

No. We the people have decided that this is a limited-speech right not appropriate to certain public spaces. Also, anti-solicitation ordinances do not discriminate and exist for valid public reasons.

6) Individuals should have the right to proselytize in semipublic spaces like shopping malls and baseball stadiums.

Semi-public means private. This would be up to the owners.

7) Teacher-led prayer should be permitted in public schools.

No. Undue influence on a vulnerable captive audience.

8) Student-led prayer should be permitted at public school assemblies.

No. Undue influence on a vulnerable captive audience.

9) Business owners should have a religious right to refuse service to customers on the basis of gender.
10) Business owners should have a religious right to refuse service to customers on the basis of race.

Business owners, licensed by the public to transact their business, must obey all anti-discrimination laws. Religion is no excuse. If your religion does not allow you to conduct business in this society in accordance with your license then you have no right to have the license or to conduct the business.

12) Houses of worship should be exempt from zoning regulations.

Of course not. Group them all with the lead smelters and the whore houses. Must stay at least 2500 feet from any school zone or governmental building. All religious buildings must be painted paisley.

13) Religious organizations should be exempt from employment anti-discrimination laws.

Ok, within reason. Wouldn’t expect a catholic priest suing a local mosque for not hiring him as Imam to be justified under such law. Other groups may have legitimate complaints. Case-by-case with me as the judge.

14) Religious organizations should be exempt from workplace safety regulations.
15) Religious exemptions from vaccination mandates should be allowed under any circumstances.
16) Religious exemptions from vaccination mandates should be allowed if medical exemptions are allowed.

All 12-16: No. Religious fantasies cannot be allowed to endanger the public health and worker safety.

17) Individuals should have a religious right not to work on their holy days.

They already have the right to negotiate with their employer. No separate religiously-centered right necessary.

No one has a right to a paid or even unpaid holiday, secular, religious, federal, personal or otherwise. It's a matter of societal norms and negotiation.

18) Religious organizations should have the same right to apply for government funding that secular organizations have.

No. Separation of church and state. You give us nothing. We give you nothing.

19) Women should have a religious right to obtain an abortion regardless of government restrictions.

What’s the religious BS? This is a secular right. Women control. Not church or government. Well, should be, anyway.

20) Indigenous peoples should have a religious right to refuse infrastructure construction on land they deem sacred.

From centuries old claims? That doesn’t work in a modern setting.

No religious right to make old property claims. Protest, petition, negotiate, rebel, publicize your claims for redress by society but you have no right of absolute religious claim.

21) Polygamy should be permitted as a religious right.

Frankly, I see no problem with polygamy among freely consenting adults. Don’t need any religious reasons. It should be allowed under secular law.

22) Publicly traded companies should have religious rights.

What would that entail? What kind of religious right could the SEC violate? Is there a claimed religious right to accelerated depreciation? No. This is just religious stupidity gone wild.

23) Religious organizations should have the right to refuse to cover contraceptive services in their health insurance plans.

That should be a matter of negotiation with employee input, but that doesn’t happen in hard corps capitalist systems like the USofA, so no.

No. Contraceptive services should be an employee elective and religious organizations not allowed to object. Actually we should have universal healthcare with contraceptive services included. Totally independent of employer or church.

24) For-profit companies should have a religious right to refuse to cover contraceptive services in their health insurance plans.

No. See 23 above.

25) There should be a religious right to practice ritual cannibalism.

Of course not. This is just stupidly inflammatory.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-28-2021 11:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33496
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(3)
Message 20 of 80 (889020)
10-30-2021 6:31 PM


as long as they follow existing marketing, sales licensing.
Everyone should have the right to practice their chosen religious cult but if the want to market and sell the product in either public spaces or commercial spaces not owned by that chosen religious cult they should have to abide the same conditions as any other vendor.

Proselytizing is simply marketing and sales and so should have to get the same licenses as the hot dog, taco or balloon vendor. They should also should not be allowed false marketing claims. If they claim to be able to sell someone salvation they should be required to provide proof of fact to back up their claims.


My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 9:40 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 21 of 80 (889034)
10-31-2021 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by AZPaul3
10-28-2021 11:04 PM


Lets Cancel Cancel Culture
Atheists make up less than 10% of the population and yet when one guy is offended on the public mall, he alone has the right to veto the Great Commission?
Here is what I got for you.

This whole cancel culture narrative is a liberal attempt to control what is said and heard. I say let's cancel the cancel culture nazis.

By the way, you are funny, AZPaul3. That's why we don't ignore you. You are part of the communion. I just slap around your demons now and then just as you do to me.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by AZPaul3, posted 10-28-2021 11:04 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 10-31-2021 2:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 22 of 80 (889035)
10-31-2021 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
10-30-2021 6:31 PM


ct! Re: as long as they follow existing marketing, sales licensing.
jar writes:

If they claim to be able to sell someone salvation they should be required to provide proof of fact to back up their claims.

And just how do you propose we do that? You have asked me time and time again to explain how I know that what I market is GOD, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit and I have been unable to provide you any proof or evidence apart from my own fallible and occasionally nauseating self. (Which would be a reason not to accept my product!

Personally, it has been my understanding that if we market our product well, people will be offended. The reasoning is that if Jesus offended the mainstream (and was crucified for it) then any good mall prophet will be ridiculed and laughed at as well. Are you suggesting that the so-called Great Commission (our reason for marketing in the first place) needs to be kinder and gentler and proven to be an attractive product before it can be licensed for public consumption?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 10-30-2021 6:31 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-31-2021 10:09 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33496
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 23 of 80 (889037)
10-31-2021 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
10-31-2021 9:40 AM


Re: ct! Re: as long as they follow existing marketing, sales licensing.
Phat writes:

jar writes:

If they claim to be able to sell someone salvation they should be required to provide proof of fact to back up their claims.

And just how do you propose we do that? You have asked me time and time again to explain how I know that what I market is GOD, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit and I have been unable to provide you any proof or evidence apart from my own fallible and occasionally nauseating self. (Which would be a reason not to accept my product!

Exactly Phat, it is impossible for you or anyone else to meant even the bare minimum standards for truth in advertising or product liability and so why should you be allowed to market such a product?

Phat writes:

Personally, it has been my understanding that if we market our product well, people will be offended. The reasoning is that if Jesus offended the mainstream (and was crucified for it) then any good mall prophet will be ridiculed and laughed at as well. Are you suggesting that the so-called Great Commission (our reason for marketing in the first place) needs to be kinder and gentler and proven to be an attractive product before it can be licensed for public consumption?

Come on Phat; we've been down this path many many many many times over the years.

Let's step into the WayBack machine to 8-8-2010.

The evolution of the Great Commission over time.

The Great Commisison was a human construction and a fine example of how marketing evolved. There is NOTHING in it that should offend people EVEN in the various human modifications and revisions and changes added by the Biblical Apologists.

It has to do with obeying Jesus Commands; the very thing that YOU and most of modern Christians refuse to do.

It's not "Do as I say" marketing but rather "Do as I do" marketing as originally written.

The way to fulfill the Great Commission is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, protect the vulnerable, teach the children ... not Proselytize and shout Lord Lord.

If you offend thy neighbor you are doing it wrong.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 9:40 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 11:35 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 24 of 80 (889038)
10-31-2021 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
10-31-2021 10:09 AM


Re: ct! Re: as long as they follow existing marketing, sales licensing.
jar writes:

If you offend thy neighbor you are doing it wrong.

Well if true, why was Jesus crucified? He obviously offended somebody.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-31-2021 10:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 10-31-2021 12:09 PM Phat has responded
 Message 30 by ringo, posted 10-31-2021 2:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 32 by jar, posted 10-31-2021 3:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 10-31-2021 3:49 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20410
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 25 of 80 (889039)
10-31-2021 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-28-2021 11:26 AM


Please write on the chalkboard 100 times, "I will stop posting silly Internet quizzes to the website."

This is a stupid, stupid quiz, but it gives me the opportunity to go off on a number of fun rants and tangents, so here we go:

  1. Students should have a religious right not to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

    The only religiously relevant objection to the pledge would be the "under God" part. I guess one could imagine Muslims objecting that it should be "under Allah." And there could be anti-religious objections to the "under God" part.

    Whether or not to say the pledge is a freedom of speech issue. Under our constitution you cannot be prevented from saying what you want (except for the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" type of thing), and you cannot be forced to say things you do not want.

    We live in a free country. Forcing people to say the pledge would go against the very words of the pledge itself: "with liberty and justice for all."

    Also, in the modern world isn't pledging allegiance to anything kind of Medieval? It's reminiscent of pledging allegiance to your lord or king.

    Those who believe pledging allegiance to a country is the right and patriotic thing to do should think about what a country does to the patriotic men and women who enlist in their armed forces. They send them charging up a hill into the maws of cannon at Gettysburg. They abandon a squad to be slaughtered as a diversion in WWII. They rain napalm down on them in Vietnam, and when they show up at the VA they disclaim knowledge of any connection between the illnesses and napalm. A half century later they expose them to burn pits in Afghanistan and then pull the same "we know nothing" stunt.

    Most people love their country, but realize that your country does not love you back. If you're willing to be one of those who "gave that last full measure of devotion" then you're not a patriot - you're a dope. Wars are just another arrow in the quiver of politicians. It's one of the very few things Trump and I agree on. Justifiable wars are few and far between? WWI, WWII and the Korean War? Absolutely necessary. The Mexican, Spanish/American, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan wars? No.

  2. Service personnel on military bases should be permitted religiously mandated headwear regardless of uniform dress codes.

    I have no opinion on this one, but if the papers people sign when they enlist say that they agree to wear the uniform they're issued, then they should either hold to their word or not enlist.

  3. Incarcerated persons should be permitted religiously mandated headwear regardless of prison dress codes.

    Aren't the indignities we visit upon the incarcerated cruel and inhumane enough? Modern prisons are no more than ancient dungeons with a modern veneer. Prisons should be rehabilitation centers, not crime schools. Punishment should end with the end of your sentence. Instead release just begins another period of punishment consisting of things like probation, parole and supervised release. Then there's a lifetime of no voting rights and hugely diminished job opportunities. If prisons were any good at rehabilitation and job training then employers would be lining up at the doors of prisons instead of universities.

    For those who believe prisons are for punishment and deterrence, you're living in the Middle Ages.

    When a society releases people from prison but makes sure they can't make a living, how will they survive? The way we do things is completely counterproductive. Prisons should be taking in criminals and releasing productive citizens. Instead, in too many cases they're releasing even worse criminals.

  4. Children should have a religious right to attend school without being vaccinated.

    Public health is the government's responsibility. Religion doesn't give people the right to spread disease and make a pandemic worse. 1%, approximately the current covid mortality rate, seems like a small number, but if you catch asymptomatic covid and spread it around, how good do you feel that only 1% of the people you infected died?

    And the mortality rate among seniors is above 10%. Do you Christians out there love your grandma and grandpa? Then goddamn get vaccinated and stop this "I've got religious reasons" bullshit, because we all know that's what it is. WWJD? He'd get vaccinated because spreading potentially fatal diseases is anti-Christian.

    Most people are hyperbolically ignorant of what SARS-Cov-2 can do even when it doesn't kill you. Those claiming concerns about what so far are fictional long term vaccine risks are ignoring actual covid risks that are already well established. 23% of covid patients experience long haul symptoms, which are symptoms that only appear a month or more later. Vaccinated people who experience breakthrough infections have long haul symptoms at about half that rate. Even people who were asymptomatic can later experience long haul symptoms. Some of the more significant long haul symptoms include:

    • Autoimmune disorder (immune system attacks the body) This one's pretty bad. It can attack the kidney or liver, forcing transplants and a lifetime of taking immunosuppressive drugs.
    • Loss of taste and/or smell
    • Chronic fatigue
    • Brain fog
    • Heart inflammation
    • Chronic cough

  5. Individuals should have the right to proselytize in public spaces regardless of anti-solicitation ordinances.

    It seems that houses of worship just aren't enough. The entire non-private world should be religion's house of worship so that in any public space they can hold services, bris, baptisms, shahadas, communions, salats, confirmations, mantras, Bible, Quran and Bagavad Gita studies, chanting, or just throw down the mat any old place and pray toward Mecca. And since Christians are so insistent that atheism is a religion, atheists should get all these same rights to intrude into the public spaces, and they should get tax exempt status.

  6. Individuals should have the right to proselytize in semipublic spaces like shopping malls and baseball stadiums.

    And airports. Let's not forget airports, which the Supreme Court ruled are not public spaces a while back. Proselytize in train and bus stations, too. Bring back the Hare Krishnas, we all know how enjoyable that was to get accosted by a Hare Krishna while trying to make your way to your next flight. It should be even more fun now that we also have all the covid restrictions.

  7. Teacher-led prayer should be permitted in public schools.

    Yes, of course. Answer is along similar lines as before. It's important that sincere and devout Christian teachers in public schools in the heart of rural Mississippi lead Muslim (Shiite and Sunni), Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Native American (all tribes), and Australian aboriginal prayers. And sure, Christian prayers, too, why not. There should be some time for actual teaching somewhere near the end of the day.

  8. Student-led prayer should be permitted at public school assemblies.

    Answer is along similar lines as before. It should be a lot of fun to witness a school assembly full of young wholesome Christians listening respectfully (as I'm sure they will) to Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Baháʼí and Native American prayers.

    Why, you Christians ask, would it make any sense to recite prayers of non-Christian religions to an assembly full of Christians? Because non-Christians will often be present. But then you ask, why should Christians be subjected to non-Christian prayers? Why do you not ask the reverse question: why should non-Christians be subjected to Christian prayers?

    And would it be a problem for you Christians if it were a Catholic prayer, perhaps about grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone? You evangelical Christians don't think you should have to listen to such a prayer, do you?

    So what you evangelical Christians actually want is a religious state where only your particular brand of Christianity is practiced and all the rest can just go hide in their corners and cry in their soup and the hell with religious freedom, which, by the way, the Supreme Court has held includes not just the freedom to practice one's religion, but also the freedom from having other religions imposed upon you.

  9. Business owners should have a religious right to refuse service to customers on the basis of gender.

    Absolutely! And in no time there'll be tons of men's only clubs of all types.

  10. Business owners should have a religious right to refuse service to customers on the basis of race.

    The author of the quiz seems to believe there's a religious foundation to racism, but oh sure, why not? The Jim Crow era, that was the pinnacle of American civilization.

  11. Pharmacists should have a religious right to refuse to sell contraceptive products to customers.

    Apparently the author of the quiz believes there are evangelical Christian pharmacists out there stocking their shelves with contraceptive products that they then refuse to sell. He must believe they're very poor businessmen.

    I think what he meant to say is that pharmacists should have the religious right to refuse to *stock* contraceptive products for customers.

  12. Houses of worship should be exempt from zoning regulations.

    The quiz's author definitely has a agenda. Federal law already states that zoning laws cannot overly burden churches, but just seeing this issue raised led me to think that churches must be the victims of antagonistic zoning laws. Guess what? Surprise of surprises, that's not the case. Churches fight zoning laws all the time when their exemption requests are turned down. Some they win, some they lose.

    And those who really think churches should be exempt from zoning regulations, say you live in a normal neighborhood and your house is next to an empty lot. Do you really want a congregation to claim they're exempt from zoning laws and build a church right next door? You do? Really? Give it a little more thought, because it could be a mosque, you know. Still okay with it?

  13. Religious organizations should be exempt from employment anti-discrimination laws.

    Boy, you religious people are a fine bunch. Those of you who think this a good idea, what if your church won't build a wheelchair ramp for your Aunt Edna and says they don't have to because they're exempt from anti-discrimination laws? How do you feel now? Or say your Uncle Fred lost out on a cleaning contract on a building owned by the local mosque because they don't do business with white people. How do you feel now?

    Whoever wrote these stupid questions that are built around religion assumes that its just Christians against insufficiently religious liberals. It's not. There are rafts of different religions out there, and any rights granted Christianity have to be granted to all other religions, too.

  14. Religious organizations should be exempt from workplace safety regulations.

    God, can these questions get any more stupid? For the answer to that question, see #25.

  15. Religious exemptions from vaccination mandates should be allowed under any circumstances.

    See answer to #4.

  16. Religious exemptions from vaccination mandates should be allowed if medical exemptions are allowed.

    So because some people are medically exempt from the vaccine because they're alergic, religious exemptions should be allowed, too?

  17. Individuals should have a religious right not to work on their holy days.

    Sure, but I'm curious. How come the Bible Belt has enough people to man retail outlets on Sunday?

  18. Religious organizations should have the same right to apply for government funding that secular organizations have.

    Same answer as for many of the questions. You Christians out there are thinking that Christian churches should be able to apply for government money, but if Christian churches can do it then churches of all religions can do it. How do you Christians feel about it now knowing that that mosque down the street might be getting government funding to make their dome higher and bigger with thicker gold leaf? Does it still seem like a good idea?

    And what is this funding that "secular organization" supposedly have access to? What I think of as "secular organizations" is fairly broad: businesses, trade groups, professional organizations, universities, non-profits, charities, etc. Some of them get some government funding (universities apply for research grants), most don't. I don't think the quiz's author thought this through.

  19. Women should have a religious right to obtain an abortion regardless of government restrictions.

    Say what? I don't think I've ever seen a pro-abortion religious argument.

  20. Indigenous peoples should have a religious right to refuse infrastructure construction on land they deem sacred.

    Wrong statement. It should be, "Indigenous people should be returned all land stolen from them."

  21. Polygamy should be permitted as a religious right.

    Statement is phrased too narrowly. Statement should be, "People should have the religious right to ignore any laws that conflict with their religious beliefs." This includes the religious beliefs of Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc. Doesn't seem like such a slam dunk now, does it?

  22. Publicly traded companies should have religious rights.

    What does it even mean for a company to have religious rights? And what about private companies? Public companies get religious rights, private companies don't? Again, the quiz's author hasn't thought things through.

  23. Religious organizations should have the right to refuse to cover contraceptive services in their health insurance plans.

    Wrong statement. The statement should be, "The United States should abandon our system of employer provided health insurance."

  24. For-profit companies should have a religious right to refuse to cover contraceptive services in their health insurance plans.

    See answer to #22.

  25. There should be a religious right to practice ritual cannibalism.

    See answer to #21.

The religious right is a powerful force in America, and the phrase "religious right" appears many times in this quiz. Coincidence? I don't think so!

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-28-2021 11:26 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 2:01 PM Percy has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5833
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 26 of 80 (889040)
10-31-2021 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
10-31-2021 11:35 AM


Re: ct! Re: as long as they follow existing marketing, sales licensing.
Well if true, why was Jesus crucified? He obviously offended somebody.

I wasn't there, so I cannot know for sure.

It was probably politics -- the same sort of right wing mob action that we saw at the US capitol on Jan 06.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 11:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 2:05 PM nwr has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 27 of 80 (889041)
10-31-2021 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Percy
10-31-2021 11:56 AM


Fairness Can Never Be Restored
Percy writes:

The statement should be, "The United States should abandon our system of employer provided health insurance."

Well I strongly disagree with that one. This past year involved more visits to Doctors and specialists than any year prior....more than the previous ten years combined. I have a job at a unionized grocery store and likely would pay more than the $10.00 a month that I pay for the insurance. (United Health Care) My medical bills were initially $136,000.00. The insurance reduced them by $110,000.00 and I ended up paying $4000.00 out of pocket. Without my employer provided insurance I would likely be in far worse shape. Can anyone seriously suggest that I would pay less for better insurance? Granted my employer pays roughly $800.00 a month for my coverage, but they also let $4000.00 a day worth of groceries waltz out the front door to avoid occasional lawsuits from disgruntled customers who were unfairly targeted...nevermind the cadre of addicted drug addicts and blatant criminals who earn a "livlihood" stealing from my employer. Yes I realize that I should help these people and be part of the solution rather than the problem. I do show some real love at times and amaze even myself. But im no liberal who could care less what costs the company. My Dad was self-employed and if someone stole from his company it would be as if they were stealing from me. And mandatory higher taxation and tolerance for the human condition does not extend to mandatory taxation upon my hardworking old self. I see it all as evil, evil, evil. There is no excuse.

It should be, "Indigenous people should be returned all land stolen from them."

Stop and think. If the government ordered Manhatten, for example, returned to the tribe of long ago, assuming they could even be properly located, what effect would that have on the forme tenants? The taxpayers? The displaced people? (Two wrongs dont make a right) Nevermind honor. Would the heirs be worthy of it any more than the former "occupiers"? Indeed...would such a move collapse the US economy? These types of reparations arguments are more complex than simply restoring honor. Let's say that I lived on "land" belonging to some long-forgotten tribe and that by law it was taken from me and I became a desperate homeless old man who likely would die on the street? Perhaps out of a drug-addicted and brain-addled old mind I even began to steal from grocery stores for sheer survival. So what have your liberal mandates regarding honor and reparations then done for me?

Again...two wrongs don't make a right. The idea that honor and fairness can be restored to society-at-large is a pipe dream.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 10-31-2021 11:56 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 10-31-2021 2:30 PM Phat has responded
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 10-31-2021 3:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15709
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 28 of 80 (889042)
10-31-2021 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nwr
10-31-2021 12:09 PM


Its The Republicans, Stupid
Why do religious arguments always come back to politics? Were Jesus here today He likely would see sin in both ideologies.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nwr, posted 10-31-2021 12:09 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 10-31-2021 3:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 35 by nwr, posted 10-31-2021 3:56 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 37 by jar, posted 10-31-2021 4:05 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19302
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(3)
Message 29 of 80 (889043)
10-31-2021 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
10-31-2021 9:26 AM


Re: Lets Cancel Cancel Culture
Phat writes:

...when one guy is offended on the public mall, he alone has the right to veto the Great Commission?


Yes. EVERYBODY has the right to veto the Great Commission. That's the "free will" that you keep touting.

Phat writes:

This whole cancel culture narrative is a liberal attempt to control what is said and heard.


I, for one liberal, do not want to cancel out anybody. I INVITE you to blather your nonsense (here, where it's appropriate). I DO NOT want to silence you. I just want to point out how stupid your ideas are.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 9:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19302
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(2)
Message 30 of 80 (889044)
10-31-2021 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
10-31-2021 11:35 AM


Re: ct! Re: as long as they follow existing marketing, sales licensing.
Phat writes:

jar writes:

If you offend thy neighbor you are doing it wrong.

Well if true, why was Jesus crucified?


Same reason why you would crucify Jesus if He was alive today - you don't like His message.

Phat writes:

He obviously offended somebody.


And He offends you, which is why you deny Him and make up a right-wing substitute.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 10-31-2021 11:35 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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