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Author Topic:   How the Bible Actually Works
FLRW
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: 10-08-2007


Message 61 of 137 (889924)
12-15-2021 4:02 PM


Modern Man is separating into Worm Man and Intelligent Man.

Earthworms form herds and make "group decisions", scientists have discovered.
The earthworms use touch to communicate and influence each other's behaviour, according to research published in the journal Ethology.
By doing so the worms collectively decide to travel in the same direction as part of a single herd.

In Humans this is called Religion.


Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 12-15-2021 5:01 PM FLRW has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 62 of 137 (889925)
12-15-2021 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by FLRW
12-15-2021 4:02 PM


Ethology can't be used to theorize about man because man isn't an animal. He was divinely created by God. Yes, animals were also created by God, but that was different because, uh, because, well, man was given dominion over them, even the extinct ones, and also ones that might come later, though of course that's impossible. Hope that resolves the confusion.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 636
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 137 (889927)
12-15-2021 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by dwise1
12-15-2021 2:29 PM


Re: Good Guidance from God?
dwise1 writes:

This god couldn't even find his way from Egypt to Canaan with both hands and a pillar of fire and you would trust him to guide you with that which is most important to you? If you were to call a cab for the airport and God was the driver, it could take you months or even years to get to the airport and even then you couldn't be sure that you were at the right one.

dwise1, you’re missing the whole god message here! Once god finally got you to the airport, he would make you run around the whole thing a-hooting and a-hollering while the entire structure collapsed killing everyone inside. This is because god is loving and merciful, or something. This would also give you your choice of seats on the airplane.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by dwise1, posted 12-15-2021 2:29 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6215
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 64 of 137 (889928)
12-15-2021 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by AnswersInGenitals
12-15-2021 7:26 PM


Re: Good Guidance from God?
Except you get to be within the airport structure yourself when the next god arrives with his passenger.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 137 (889929)
12-15-2021 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Percy
12-13-2021 7:54 PM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Percy writes:

when jar asks God, how will he know it's God? Should he ask you? That would at least be neatly circular.

jar claims t be Christian based on official membership in a known club. (Episcopal Church) You could also well argue that I don't know God based on my increasingly selfish and unloving behavior and actions. In fact, I am worse than jar because I *do* claim that God is knowable whereby he does not, citing no evidence nor way to know God. I counter that argument by claiming that evidence-based science is either all in (that a fact would be known and knowable by everyone objectively) or all out (that God does not exist and is unknowable pending evidence.) I would argue that Jesus Himself said that the road to salvation (and perhaps knowledge or enlightenment) is narrow and few find it while the broad path of what He calls destruction is clogged with masses of humanity.

I won't claim to be on the narrow path yet. I too am on that broad path of destruction...both physically and spiritually. But I will claim that I have at one time met Jesus and I am trying to return to my first love (Him) spiritually even as I try and save my life physically through proper medical attention and diet.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 12-13-2021 7:54 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 8:20 AM Phat has responded
 Message 67 by jar, posted 12-16-2021 9:11 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 12-16-2021 11:00 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2021 11:34 AM Phat has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20507
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 66 of 137 (889930)
12-16-2021 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
12-15-2021 9:06 PM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
God help you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 12-15-2021 9:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-16-2021 12:04 PM Percy has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33658
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 67 of 137 (889931)
12-16-2021 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
12-15-2021 9:06 PM


you keep making posts about what you think I said.
Stop it.

Phat writes:

jar claims t be Christian based on official membership in a known club.

As always, you show you are simply unable to read with understanding what I and others write. Slow down. Stop and actually read what people post.

I am a registered member of a recognized Chapter of Club Christian and have been so documented for over three quarters of a century.

The Episcopal Church is and has been a recognized part of the Anglican Communion. That is a fact.

Membership in that chapter of Club Christian is documented in the official reports of each parish and as a person moves around the country his or her membership is formally transferred.

I am a Christian based on evidence.

Phat writes:

You could also well argue that I don't know God based on my increasingly selfish and unloving behavior and actions.

And with the very next sentence you show that you still don't understand the basics.

Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with knowing or not knowing God.

Phat writes:

In fact, I am worse than jar because I *do* claim that God is knowable whereby he does not, citing no evidence nor way to know God.

Again, what I actually say is that no one has ever presented a model, method, mechanism, process or procedure that would allow someone to know GOD.

What does exist is a myriad of models, methods, mechanisms, processes and procedures that lets people describe the god(s) or God(s) that humans create.

Phat writes:

I would argue that Jesus Himself said that the road to salvation (and perhaps knowledge or enlightenment) is narrow and few find it while the broad path of what He calls destruction is clogged with masses of humanity.

No; knowledge and wisdom are not mentioned in that passage and in fact the passage is so vague as to have an infinite number of interpretations.

For now though you really really need to throw Jesus and all the gods away and concentrate solely on your health.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 12-15-2021 9:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19388
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.1


(1)
Message 68 of 137 (889932)
12-16-2021 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
12-15-2021 9:06 PM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Phat writes:

I would argue that Jesus Himself said that the road to salvation (and perhaps knowledge or enlightenment) is narrow and few find it while the broad path of what He calls destruction is clogged with masses of humanity.


You need to get your story straight. Do you believe/accept what the Jesus in the "dusty old book" said, or don't you?

And the idea of the "straight and narrow way" is less about exclusivity and more about about difficulty. If anybody is excluded, it's because they exclude themsleves. They aren't willing to make the sacrifices.

Read Matthew 7. The bit about the narrow way is preceded by, "ask (for spare change) and ye shall receive," and it's followed by, "ye shall know them by their fruits."


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 12-15-2021 9:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6215
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 6.2


(3)
Message 69 of 137 (889933)
12-16-2021 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
12-15-2021 9:06 PM


Resolving A Challenge.
This is one of those situations where familiarity challenges morality.

My personal morality allows for the killing of religion. Not the people or artifacts but the ideas. Might say my personal morality encourages the killing of religion. In reality my personal morality requires the killing of religion. Crush it. Stomp on its head. Kill it dead.

Then there’s Phat.

The ideal, at least in my mind, is that Phat let the scales fall from his eyes and embrace the reality of the universe and the humanist/science mindset it engenders thus motivating him to more realistically thus more effectively attack his health problems. That's not happening. A mountain of apologetics blocks his view.

He says he is doing what he is supposed to do (seriously, Phat, I sure hope this is true) but is leaning on God and his faith in Jesus to help temper the raging storm of angst in his soul.

Who is to challenge this? Is this touch of religious poison acceptable if it helps a friend in deep need?

But I will claim that I have at one time met Jesus and I am trying to return to my first love (Him) spiritually even as I try and save my life physically through proper medical attention and diet.

Gawd, that sucks. I can't accept this.

Do the health thing because it will keep you the fuck alive, Phat!

“Oh, but kind sir, I am a Christian and death has no hold on me.”

Remember Pascal? If he’s wrong then you just squandered the only experience at life you’re ever going to get. Let the scales fall, Phat. There is an entire universe for you yet to see, to experience, with a free mind and your time here is growing ever shorter.

Message number is nice.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 12-15-2021 9:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-16-2021 12:27 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 12-16-2021 12:52 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 137 (889934)
12-16-2021 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Percy
12-16-2021 8:20 AM


Re: Believing In Things Which Can Be Quantified
Percy writes:

God help you.

Which god, Percy? You all seem to agree that any of them are equally valid.

I believe that only One can help us. Any others with any power at all are rebellious spirit beings.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 8:20 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Percy, posted 12-16-2021 1:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 71 of 137 (889935)
12-16-2021 12:10 PM


He can't change, he thinks Jesus spoke to him. He has 'internal evidence'.

But Jesus seems to tell different people different things, hence all the thousands of Christian flavours.

I heard a psychiatrist talking about people that hear voices this week. It's virtually impossible to convince them that the 'internal evidence' they hear is delusional. No matter how obviously barking mad it is. And a lot of it is truly mad.

For them it is reality and to cure it we have to accept that it's as real as the chair we sit on to them.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by dwise1, posted 12-16-2021 12:25 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4818
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 72 of 137 (889936)
12-16-2021 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
12-16-2021 12:10 PM


I heard a psychiatrist talking about people that hear voices this week. It's virtually impossible to convince them that the 'internal evidence' they hear is delusional. No matter how obviously barking mad it is. And a lot of it is truly mad.

quote:
"Don't do what the voices tell you to do! They are not your friends!"
(Malcolm in the Middle S4E19, Reese's warning from personal experience to little brother Dewey)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2021 12:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 137 (889937)
12-16-2021 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by AZPaul3
12-16-2021 11:34 AM


Re: Resolving A Challenge.
AZ writes:

The ideal, at least in my mind, is that Phat let the scales fall from his eyes and embrace the reality of the universe and the humanist/science mindset it engenders thus motivating him to more realistically thus more effectively attack his health problems. That's not happening. A mountain of apologetics blocks his view and focus on the one inner person that you really want to be, or that you believe is the best effort in life.

Well... The ideal in *my* mind is that you stop all of this (unknowing)
idolatry (weed, porn, magical belief in cosmology as a universal answer, Arizona vortexes, and mysterious caves and artifacts, and whatever else you inwardly feel better when employing. Of course, you and many here are so anti-theistic that you will be among the last to recognize that there is but One God, known through the character of Jesus Christ and that it has nothing to do with religion, church politics, Republicans, or American Exceptionalism. Likely jar is right in that most of the goats will be Christians, but he seems to think that belief is unimportant and that behavior toward others is key.

His idea of God and my idea of God are entirely different. In fact, most of you reject God because the Deity failed to produce conclusive evidence for you to examine.

Perhaps he is right that in the end, if there is a judge at all, our behavior will be judged far harsher than our beliefs. ringo and others accuse me of rejecting the dusty old book when the demands become uncomfortable. I know of nobody here at EvC who would give everything away and trust either God (if they believe) or the universe to provide for and take care of them.

And perhaps thats a weakness of Biblical Christians(people who believe in a literal Bible, an exclusive connection with God through Jesus Christ) and ironically usually a selfish streak in them that would have them protect the assets and interests of their family first...before humanistically helping the world-at-large.

In some ways, you guys are closer to the Jesus you dont believe in than I am to the Jesus whom I DO believe in. In other ways, you ae blissfully unaware of the spiritual war and intrinsic evil in the world unless it is defined through Republicans.

You don't believe in any sort of Original Sin (selfishness, competition, and hatred of other people). I don't believe that I have to be selfish or greedy, but I would rather allow that than to give everything up to a godless secular (and self-proclaimed benevolent) government.

As far as taking care of myself, I trust science and medicine first.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2021 11:34 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2021 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 77 by nwr, posted 12-16-2021 1:19 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 78 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2021 3:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 12-17-2021 11:21 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8331
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 74 of 137 (889938)
12-16-2021 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-16-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Resolving A Challenge.
Phat writes:

You don't believe in any sort of Original Sin (selfishness, competition, and hatred of other people).

Of course we don't; it's most egregious twaddle ever invented by man. It's simply a function of being an evolved ape. We are forced to compete like all other animals. But we are civilising gradually by purely human means.

I don't believe that I have to be selfish or greedy, but I would rather allow that than to give everything up to a godless secular (and self-proclaimed benevolent) government.

The really sad bit about this is that you actually believe that these are the choices open to you. You are a bear of very little brain and what little you have is addled by this religious garbage that wrecks everything.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-16-2021 12:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5887
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 75 of 137 (889939)
12-16-2021 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by AZPaul3
12-16-2021 11:34 AM


Re: Resolving A Challenge.
The ideal, at least in my mind, is that Phat let the scales fall from his eyes and embrace the reality of the universe and the humanist/science mindset it engenders thus motivating him to more realistically thus more effectively attack his health problems.

Indeed. However, as we know from experience, that is unlikely to happen.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2021 11:34 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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