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Author Topic:   Could Trump Instigate A New Civil War?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 76 of 90 (891263)
01-23-2022 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by dwise1
01-22-2022 4:51 PM


A few comments and observations for PaulK and dwise1.
You tell some good stories! I appreciate what you think. I know that you usually get me thinking as well. I will try and comment tomorrow...I'm soo tired.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by dwise1, posted 01-22-2022 4:51 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2022 11:51 AM Phat has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20761
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 77 of 90 (891266)
01-23-2022 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
01-22-2022 4:06 PM


Re: Is Jesus Liberal or Conservative or...
Tangle writes:

Lots of us have explained this to you many, many times over many years. But you don't seem to be terribly interested in the answer. Why not?

The "ability to examine things from another perspective" gene seems to be missing, as does the "we've discussed this before detector" gene. It's apparently common among the religious (especially the creationist religious), Trumpists, and discoverers that relativity is wrong.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2022 4:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2022 10:19 AM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 78 of 90 (891267)
01-23-2022 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Percy
01-23-2022 9:42 AM


Re: Is Jesus Liberal or Conservative or...
Phat writes:

The "ability to examine things from another perspective" gene seems to be missing, as does the "we've discussed this before detector" gene. It's apparently common among the religious (especially the creationist religious), Trumpists, and discoverers that relativity is wrong.

It's very odd isn't it? When Phat says that he believes that he talks to God, or that Jesus is mankind's saviour or whatever, I have no difficulty accepting that that's what he believes.

I think it's dumb and delusional but I don't think he's lying to me. It seems that his brain is so thoroughly washed he just can't accept that it's possible not to believe what he believes, so he just dismisses it. So it just comes up again and again like it our explanations have never happened.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 01-23-2022 9:42 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 01-23-2022 12:30 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5074
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 79 of 90 (891272)
01-23-2022 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
01-23-2022 1:46 AM


Re: A few comments and observations for PaulK and dwise1.
I'll offer a little something to munch on with your morning coffee: Pascal's Wager, which was offered to me in a proselytizing attempt as "after-life insurance" which I discuss on my page of the same name.

Most people, myself included, have not read the original in Pascal's Pensées, but the basic argument as most understand it you can arrive at four conclusions from two binary premises in which you either win or lose: "Either God exists or He doesn't" and "Either you believe in God or you don't." Refer to either or the two links above for a presentation of those conclusions, but in popular usage:

  • If God exists and you choose to believe, then you win.
  • If God exists and you choose to not believe, then you lose.
  • If God does not exist and you choose to believe, then you win (by having benefited from religion).
  • If God does not exist and you choose to not believe, then you lose (by not having benefited from religion).

  • Therefore, choosing to believe is the safer and better choice, basically a no-lose situation.

The Wager is plagued by all kinds of bad assumptions, some of which have leaked in over time, such as the assumption that believing costs you nothing (absolutely wrong!), that everyone benefits from religion (absolutely wrong!), etc. Read the discussion on my page. On my links page I link to a parody "news article" from no longer extant Religion Detox that I reconstructed from a printout, Pascal's Casinos Under Fire. In that article, Pascal's Casinos lured in customers with the promise of sure-win games when in reality those customers were losing their shirts (plus, once you play at Pascal's you are forbidden to play at any other casino).

Basically, from my "after-life insurance" page:

quote:
He tried to sell me after-life insurance! Though he didn't actually call it that. Rather, he used car insurance as an analogy. He said that we get car insurance just in case we ever get into an accident. If we have an accident, then we are glad we bought the insurance. If we never have an accident, then at least having had the insurance had saved us a lot of worry. Similarly, if Hell exists and we convert, then we are saved, but if we don't convert, then we are damned for Eternity. And if it turns out that Hell does not exist, then we would have lost nothing by having converted but would have gained peace of mind.

Unfortunately for him, I immediately recognized his argument as a rehash of the classic Pascal's Wager. Even more unfortunately for him, I also knew the Wager's problems. It very quickly became obvious that he neither knew Pascal's Wager nor its problems, but he soon learned.

. . .

So I told my after-life insurance salesman that his after-life insurance was a rotten deal (unfortunately, I didn't think of that name for it until the next day, but that poor guy was already hurting too much). We had to pay an exorbinant price for a policy that would only pay in the most restricted and oddest of circumstances. By the car insurance analogy, it would only pay if you were hit by a green Edsel -- on the northbound side of the Santa Ana Freeway -- while it was exceeding the speed limit -- backing up -- at night -- with its lights off -- being driven by a one-armed Lithuanian midget.

He had been so self-assured that his argument was flawless and unassailable. He couldn't understand what had just happened. I think he still doesn't know what had hit him.

Which goes to show that it does pay to read the classics


Two of the worst assumptions made by invokers of Pascal's Wager are: 1) the odds of God existing or not are even, 50/50, and 2) that there's only one possible definition for "God" and everybody who uses that word means the exact same thing by it. Here is my discussion of the Wager's problems:

quote:
First there is one very basic question which never gets asked here: which god? Just because some of the gods may exist, does not mean that they all exist. Which one do you choose? Remember, if you choose the wrong one, the outcome will be the same as for not choosing any. Each god has roughly the same probability of existing as any other (ignoring some of the pantheon package deals out there), or that none of them exist. So choosing the right god is not 100% as presented to us, but rather is a fraction of 1%.

Even worse, you not only need to choose the right god, but you also need to choose the right theology. Some gods have a variety of theologies associated with them, each one considering itself the True Faith and the others heresies; e.g., the various sects of Christianity. So even if you choose the right god, if you choose the wrong theology, then you are just as out of luck as if you had chosen the wrong god, some times even more so. Pascal was a Catholic, so he was talking about choosing to be a Catholic. The Protestants using his Wager in vain have already chosen the wrong theology and so picked the losing side of the Wager and are trying to make losers out of everyone they proselytize to. To choose none of the gods actually turns out to be the safer bet, because, unlike the Christian god, a lot of the gods couldn't care less whether you believe in them or not.

And what happens if you choose a god and it turns out that none of them exist? Pascal naively assumed that being a Catholic had an inherent benefit of making you a better person, which you could not achieve as a non-believer. While there may be some room for argument in the first part, the last part is blatantly untrue.

Pascal maintained that believing in his god and theology costs you nothing, but that is not true of his own theology, nor of most of the theologies that exist. What if you could not pursue your dream career because your chosen god forbade it? Or marry your one true love (your "media naranja", or "half orange", as my wife's grandmother had put it) because your god forbade you to marry that kind of person? Or learn the sciences because your god forbade you to study the truth? Or to think for yourself because your god forbade it? Or had to suffered from a horrible disease or injury or had to watch your child die horribly of a treatable disease because your god forbade the medical treatment for it? For many of us, that would be too great a cost to bear.


In case you missed it there, the "God" in Pascal's Wager was the Catholic god, which makes you as a heretic Protestant damned for Eternity.

And not only is it extremely improbable to choose the right god, but agnostic and ignostic truths make even that impossible. We cannot know anything objective about the supernatural because it is outside our human abilities to detect it let alone study it. All we have to go by are subjective feelings and unfounded assumptions which form the quicksand foundations for massive and intricate theological structures ever fearful of being toppled by the slightest breeze.

Now, of course, if one decides to use a god-based approach, then that is that person's own choice and he's free to do so. But he is not free to insist to others that his own personal choice must also be accepted by everybody else. And I would hope that in deciding on a god that that person would do so with his eyes open (and brain engaged) enough to realize that his choice of god is arbitrary regardless of how necessary that choice is to his god-based approach.

I should also mention how you're pushing our buttons. Christians and other religious fanatics have a long and very bloody history of prosecuting others even to the point of annihilating them just for the purpose of imposing their gods on others. Whenever a Christian tries to force his god on us, we see that extremely ugly side of Christianity coming out and we do not like it one bit! Not unlike when Republicans start talking about "tax cuts" (Reagan's much touted "tax cuts" caused our taxes to nearly double despite our being lower middle class homeowners).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-23-2022 1:46 AM Phat has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 01-23-2022 12:09 PM dwise1 has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 80 of 90 (891273)
01-23-2022 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by dwise1
01-23-2022 11:51 AM


Re: A few comments and observations for PaulK and dwise1.
dw1 writes:

Christians and other religious fanatics have a long and very bloody history of prosecuting others even to the point of annihilating them just for the purpose of imposing their gods on others.

Christians, even more than any other religious or political or nationalistic or ideological fanatics, have a long and very bloody history of persecuting others even to the point of annihilating them just for the purpose of imposing their god on others and imposing only the god of their Chapter of Club Christian even on all the other Chapters of Club Christian.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by dwise1, posted 01-23-2022 11:51 AM dwise1 has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20761
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 81 of 90 (891274)
01-23-2022 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
01-23-2022 10:19 AM


Re: Is Jesus Liberal or Conservative or...
Another thought occurred to me. It isn't uncommon in discussions for it to become helpful to reformulate the question. Oftentimes the question as originally formulated wasn't clear or just wasn't interpreted as intended, and then reformulating the question is a good idea.

What Phat is doing is reformulating the same questions over and over again, but not because the earlier formulations weren't clear or the answers weren't clear, and not because anything was misinterpreted, but because a few days have gone by and another way of asking the same questions have occurred to Phat. Repeatedly Phat is met with replies telling him, in effect, "You asked that already" or "We've answered that already", but round and round he goes anyway. Hard to watch or experience, I've taken a break from responding to him. He's become like some of the worst creationists we've ever had here, not about evolution but about gold as an investment and fiat currencies and evil liberals and the nation sinking national debt and threatening immigrants.

I wonder how his A1C's doing, I haven't noticed him mention it in a while.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2022 10:19 AM Tangle has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 01-23-2022 12:36 PM Percy has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 82 of 90 (891275)
01-23-2022 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Percy
01-23-2022 12:30 PM


A1C levels
I've gotten mine down to under 5.4 average over the last three months.

Ain't always easy or fun but needed to be done.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 01-23-2022 12:30 PM Percy has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 83 of 90 (891295)
01-24-2022 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
01-19-2022 11:13 AM


Re: Is Jesus Liberal or Conservative or...
Phat writes:

One of them which I do *not* accept is the fact that all viewpoints lead to truth.


Who said they did?

Phat writes:

Truth is the eternally living character of Jesus Christ.


Nonsense. By their FRUITS ye shall know them.

Phat writes:

Again, WWJD?


You don't care WJWD. You scoff at WJTYTD.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 01-19-2022 11:13 AM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 84 of 90 (891296)
01-24-2022 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
01-19-2022 3:24 PM


Re: Is Jesus Liberal or Conservative or...
Phat writes:

The problem in the world today that frightens me is the demise of the United States of America. Russia and China are already testing the diplomacy of strength that we had for so many years.


Trump is a far greater threat to the US than Russia and China put together. If the US does collapse in our lifetime, it will be from within.

What you have to fear is fear itself.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 01-19-2022 3:24 PM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 85 of 90 (891297)
01-24-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
01-19-2022 5:01 PM


Re: Is Jesus Liberal or Conservative or...
Phat writes:

At that time many will turn away from the faith.


Jesus was talking about YOU. "The faith" is faith in the message.

Phat writes:

Love will grow cold.


Buy a mirror. There's a beam in your eye.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 01-19-2022 5:01 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 86 of 90 (891298)
01-24-2022 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
01-22-2022 8:55 AM


Re: Is Jesus Liberal or Conservative or...
Phat writes:

You cant be a Christian without knowing Jesus.


How can you claim to "know" Jesus when you argue against everything He said?

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 01-22-2022 8:55 AM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 87 of 90 (891299)
01-24-2022 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
01-22-2022 3:59 PM


Re: spending on homeless
Phat writes:

I suppose that you think the money to give away housing will come from the state. Thus, taxes will need to be higher....


This has been explained to you many times: Pull the poor up to where THEY can pay taxes. That won't increase your taxes.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 01-22-2022 3:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 01-24-2022 11:52 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 88 of 90 (891301)
01-24-2022 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
01-24-2022 11:09 AM


Re: spending on homeless
ringo writes:

Pull the poor up to where THEY can pay taxes. That won't increase your taxes.

I dont pay many taxes yet. I no longer get refunds, however. If you pull the poor up to where they pay taxes, you are pulling them past me. Do you honestly think that you can make the top 10% fund your social programs and green new deals? You won't get the money from them. And that leaves the rest of us working hard and being forced by the government to share what little we have.
ringo writes:

How can you claim to "know" Jesus when you argue against everything He said?

This is obviously a hollow assertion. You *know* that Jesus does not exist but you use his message to justify your party's agenda. I don't ignore what Jesus told me to do. I ignore what the liberal agenda tries to make me do. The whole issue is power. You guys simply don't nor never will have the power to make anyone pay anything.
ringo writes:

"The faith" is faith in the message.

. It is unless the "message" has been hijacked into some sort of universal brotherhooded campaign solgan.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 01-24-2022 11:09 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 01-24-2022 12:01 PM Phat has taken no action
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 01-24-2022 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 89 of 90 (891304)
01-24-2022 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
01-24-2022 11:52 AM


Every one of your posts shows that you despise Jesus
see Message 36

Jesus' message was that God only recognizes universal brotherhood and you ain't special.

Who said that you should do for the least of these?

And I answered your question (see Message 68), now it is your turn unless as always in the past you will simply run away.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 01-24-2022 11:52 AM Phat has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 90 of 90 (891308)
01-24-2022 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
01-24-2022 11:52 AM


Re: spending on homeless
Phat writes:

I dont pay many taxes yet


So what the F**K are you whining about?

Phat writes:

Do you honestly think that you can make the top 10% fund your social programs and green new deals?


If you ever read my posts, you'd know I don't advocate taxing the rich.

Phat writes:

And that leaves the rest of us working hard and being forced by the government to share what little we have.


Again... ... sharing what you have helps EVEYBODY.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

How can you claim to "know" Jesus when you argue against everything He said?


This is obviously a hollow assertion

Nope. You prove it with every post.

Phat writes:

You *know* that Jesus does not exist...


Nope.

Phat writes:

... but you use his message to justify your party's agenda.


Nope. There's no party and no agenda. I DO understand that the Jesus character in the Bible got it right on some things. And I DO understand that that's the ONLY valid reference we have for what Jesus (if He ever existed) may have said.

Phat writes:

I don't ignore what Jesus told me to do.


Worse than that, you argue against what He said. It's in your posts. Don't pretend you didn't do it.

Phat writes:

I ignore what the liberal agenda tries to make me do.


It has nothing to do with any agenda, liberal or otherwise. (And you do realize, don't you, that your harping against "liberals" proves that you're not the moderate that you pretend to be.)

If you ever read my posts, you'd know that it isn't about the government forcing you to do anything. I have told you that many, many, many times. You should be EAGER to do what Jesus told you to do. If you and other Christians were doing what you're supposed to do, there would be no need for government involvement at all.

Phat writes:

The whole issue is power.


Nope. Nothing whatsoever to do with power. It's about compassion.

Phat writes:

You guys simply don't nor never will have the power to make anyone pay anything.


And i keep telling you, it isn't about "us" having the power to do anything. It's about YOU having an ounce of compassion.

Phat writes:

unless the "message" has been hijacked into some sort of universal brotherhooded campaign solgan.


See, there you go again, arguing against Jesus' message of universal brotherhood.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 01-24-2022 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message

  
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