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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 16 of 83 (891469)
01-31-2022 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
01-28-2022 7:55 PM


Re: EEEEK!! Help!! Help!!
quote:
No, please no. You have come all this way to rid yourself of such a fantasy world, to let your mind be free to know life in all its pains and glories, to know reality. Seems you still have fond thoughts from being poisoned. Vestiges of your acculturation in irrationality remain. Fight it, Brother! We're with you!

For the love of god, Hangdawg, please do not expose your children to church. They are going to get saturated with religious symbology and irrational thought all too soon and all too often. Give them a fighting chance to escape the woo of religious thought. The thought that supermajik is somehow real will ruin their minds forever. Please spare them this abuse by the priests.


I've never been catholic so never had a priest or been abused...

I see my religious upbringing has having a lot of negative effects but with an overall slight net positive, and I think it would be useful for my kids to have a basic knowledge of Christianity without being brainwashed into the cult.

When we first moved to Austin we tried a church mainly to try and give our boy some socialization with other kids during the pandemic when no one would come out to play. We met a few nice people, but the main couple we liked moved back to California, and there were some other weirdos leading the group so we quit going.

The part that turns my stomach is recalling the constant angst at worrying the person you were talking to wasn't "saved" or that you should try to do something about that by pushing the conversation onto "the really important stuff" like spiritual stuff or that you weren't doing the right thing or weren't hearing God right or what is it God wants you to do... and all the Christianese, the jargon, the cultishenss, the fake non-real people putting on a good front, blech...

As far as the "magic".. I still believe in "magic" so to speak. And by that I mean, non-local interactions of intention or emotion upon material systems... the domain of Psi or Parapsychology.

...for example, the federal government's remote viewing program employing psychic spies to spy on the Russians (with documented success). Or some interesting studies like one where the interference pattern in an interferometer (like the double slit experiment) was influenced by a meditator in a remote location, or presentiment experiments where a person's brain began registering an emotional response to emotional pictures before the picture was randomly selected from a bank of mixed content; or the ganzfeld experiments that show any random person can perceive non-local information if you put them in a certain state. I also have a few personal experiences to add to the parapsychology studies that inform my thinking on it.

Anyway... if you think it's all bunkum, that's ok.


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 17 of 83 (891471)
01-31-2022 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 10:16 AM


Hangdawg writes:

Do you prefer to view reality as a singular mechanism... a block universe with fixed past and future? Or what is a superior metaphysics that I should graduate to... in your opinion?

Well....... I don't view it as any of those things because I don't know what they mean and suspect that they don't mean anything ;-)

If I had a head for cosmological physics I might have something to say about it but I don't so I just accept reality for what's in front of me.

I'm very sceptical that just thinking hard about stuff and making up terminologies can give us answers that are worth much. If that were the case we'd have cracked it a thousand years ago. It very soon gets to be all woo and magical thinking.

Introducing quantum theory into threads like these is a bit like introducing Hitler. I feel an eye roll coming on; anything can be said next. We don't live in a quantum world we live in a big world were big things don't disappear randomly. (Except my car keys of course.)

It seems to me that you're searching very, very hard for some kind of meaning so you're likely to find it in all sorts of woo. I find meaning in family, friends, fishing, work, scotch, log fires etc etc. Just day-to-day reality.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 10:16 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 2:40 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 18 of 83 (891473)
01-31-2022 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hangdawg13
01-28-2022 12:44 PM


I can only repeat what I said at your last comeback in 2010:
quote:
I remember the name and the avatar but little else. I don't remember kicking you around.

(I don't remember the avatar any more.)

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-28-2022 12:44 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 2:42 PM ringo has seen this message

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5972
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 19 of 83 (891475)
01-31-2022 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 10:11 AM


Where's the "like" button for a post on this forum?

It is the "Cheers" below the poster's name.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 10:11 AM Hangdawg13 has taken no action

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 20 of 83 (891478)
01-31-2022 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
01-31-2022 11:04 AM


quote:
Introducing quantum theory into threads like these is a bit like introducing Hitler. I feel an eye roll coming on;

haha... yes I knew I was committing a sin by bringing in QM so soon.

quote:
We don't live in a quantum world we live in a big world were big things don't disappear randomly.

I would reduce your statement to: we live in a world of mechanisms - unbroken causal chains - computable spaces.

To which I would reply: there could be domains of physics as-yet undiscovered that make a mechanism out of what you call "woo". And also, if something truly new happened, a prime cause, an insertion of a new causal chain, you could not see it looking through the lens of science, because science requires something to be repeatable and testable. Something truly new has not happened before and is either unique or has not been repeated enough to be seen by science.

IMO, moment by moment experience is "new" and that is why we find ourselves here - to explore the boundary between computable (mechanistic) and non-computable spaces.

quote:
It seems to me that you're searching very, very hard for some kind of meaning so you're likely to find it in all sorts of woo. I find meaning in family, friends, fishing, work, scotch, log fires etc etc. Just day-to-day reality.

I find meaning in all of those things too... except fishing... never been much of a fisherman.

Meaning is a symbolic representation of a goal. All the things you mentioned are good and pleasing things... things many of us have as goals. The fulfillment of a goal brings satisfaction or we might say it is meaningful. Goals that are achieved over longer timespans or with more effort are generally more meaningful.

We can probably agree on that much. Where we might disagree is that you probably see goal origination/fulfilment as limited to your present consciousness and span of life, whereas I see an individual life as embedded within a larger structure of goal origination/fulfillment such that what we accomplish and learn in this life is informing a larger entity that has goals spanning more than one life... we might call this entity a soul.

I think really the two competing worldviews here are one of hardness / fixedness / immutability, and one of softness / flexibility / malleability. Materialism is an extrapolation of the sensory experience of hardness and idealism is an extrapolation of softness or fluidity.

When you use the word "woo" the sound of the word implies a lack of rigidity... it is like goo... malleable, unable to hold a particular shape... or it is a sound like that made by the theramin which is unstable, not holding a particular note, but sliding up and down freely.

These are all ways of contrasting structure and anti-structure. Structure is composed of boundaries. Some people prefer rigid boundaries and some people prefer fuzzy fluid boundaries.

We have mental structures or maps of the world and it is important that these mental structures have some rigidity because this is how we stay sane. If a person's mental structure is dissolved or too fluid, they cannot function... they don't have capacity to form goals and devise plans to achieve them and respond to reality in a meaningful way.

So it is understandable to be fearful of "woo" or magical thinking because it could potentially wreck a person's ability to function in the real world.

Many people have an experience of boundary dissolution and come back changed but some never recover.

An experience of boundary dissolution or "non-symbolic experience" can come in all sorts of ways... the more harmless ways might be merely enjoying a sunset and feeling as though you and nature are one, or it could come through meditation where the wordy monkey-mind is silenced, or it could come through psychedelics, or rhythmic chanting/drumming... all sorts of ways to induce it.

When we look around in our ordinary mode of consciousness our brains are pre-processing everything for us and identifying things according to use. We see edges that could be sharp or blunt, hard or soft, handles, seats, tables, knobs... grass that needs to be mowed and weeds that need to be pulled, etc.

But there is another mode of consciousness that diminishes this categorization and boundary creation and in this type of experience boundaries like self/other disappear and one experiences a sea of color and sound rather than edges and symbols.

IMO, this type of experience is one of the kernels of religion. It is useful to have this experience from time to time, but it can lead to complete breakdown and inability to function. Why is it useful? Structures bear stress. Mental structures are stressful and this is hard on our bodies. If we can come and go from this state at will, we can greatly reduce stress and that is healthy. Another side benefit is that we can be open to intuition rather than being in the focused goal-oriented mode of consciousness which filters almost everything not related to our present goal.

You could think of these two modes of consciousness as Predator mode and Prey mode. A predator is often focused on a specific point and goal - catching the prey - and might tune everything out that is not related to that goal. A prey animal on the other hand doesn't know where the danger might be coming from and so focusing on a point to exclusion of all others is dangerous. A prey animal needs to be sensing in all directions and open to information from any source.

Anyway... back to work!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2022 11:04 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2022 4:47 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 21 of 83 (891479)
01-31-2022 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
01-31-2022 11:29 AM


Hah, I forgot that I came back a bit in 2010...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 01-31-2022 11:29 AM ringo has seen this message

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 22 of 83 (891480)
01-31-2022 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
01-31-2022 10:42 AM


quote:
The past is fixed. The future not yet recorded.

Where and how is the past recorded? And is it recorded for ever? No deletions?

Is there any compression?

If upon my death bed I have a life review and see my dog running through the yard is every blade of grass in the same place or did God's GAN upscale a blank patch labeled "grass" into freshly created grass because the location of the blades of grass doesn't matter?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 01-31-2022 10:42 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 01-31-2022 3:20 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 24 by dwise1, posted 01-31-2022 4:29 PM Hangdawg13 has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 23 of 83 (891481)
01-31-2022 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 2:48 PM


The past is.

What we record as the past is as fluid and conflicting as what is recorded in the Bibles.

But the narrative is simply the narrative, it does not change the reality of what happened.

Dawg writes:

If upon my death bed I have a life review and see my dog running through the yard is every blade of grass in the same place or did God's GAN upscale a blank patch labeled "grass" into freshly created grass because the location of the blades of grass doesn't matter?

What you experience is simply a fantasy and will be whatever you create within your personal fantasy.

It is separate from any reality beyond the fact that it is the fantasy you created for yourself at that moment.

It is a GAN, nothing more.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 2:48 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 4:50 PM jar has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5075
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 24 of 83 (891483)
01-31-2022 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 2:48 PM


Where and how is the past recorded?

You will need to ask Percy for the technical details, since this is his forum, he set it up, and he maintains it.

However, to access the past for any member, simply click on his name's link (eg, in the Author block to the left of every single message, but there are many other ways that our links are displayed). That will take you to that member's Topic Index page which lists in ascending chronological order every topic he had posted to with a link (and date-time stamp) of the last message he had posted there. For example, yours shows your brief return visit 11-17 Oct 2010, your previous last post 14-Oct-2006 9:37 PM, all the way back to your last post 30-May-2004 4:24 PM in your first topic (and coincidentally the only post in that topic). BTW, if you click on the message number link then that will take you to that topic.

And is it recorded for ever?

Depends on Percy's archiving policies, I would imagine. Your past goes back at least to 30 May 2004. Percy should be the first member (Member ID 2), so his joining date, 22-Dec-2000, should also be when he created the forum, and his first ever message was posted 24-Dec-2000 3:23 PM (BTW, times are undoubtedly PST/PDT, since that's in my personal settings).

No deletions?

Not to my knowledge, since Percy is not a creationist and hence should be honest. In contrast, there was one creationist, crazynutsx, who posted here briefly mainly to invite us over to his own new forum. In his case, on his own forum he would indeed resort to deleting members' messages that he could not handle and then lie about it -- another member here also joined the forum and even became an administrator, so he was able to check the forum logs and exposed that weasel's malfeasance. He ended up abandoning his forum after which Japanese hackers took it over.

Is there any compression?

Again, you would need to ask Percy for technical details.

If upon my death bed I have a life review and ...

I'm pretty sure that would be on a different server. You would need to direct your question to that server's admin.


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 25 of 83 (891484)
01-31-2022 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 2:40 PM


Hangdawg writes:

I would reduce your statement to: we live in a world of mechanisms - unbroken causal chains - computable spaces.

Please don't, if you want to know what I think just ask.

To which I would reply

You don't need me in this conversation do you?

To which I would reply: there could be domains of physics as-yet undiscovered that make a mechanism out of what you call "woo". And also, if something truly new happened, a prime cause, an insertion of a new causal chain, you could not see it looking through the lens of science, because science requires something to be repeatable and testable. Something truly new has not happened before and is either unique or has not been repeated enough to be seen by science.

What probability would you assign to it? Is it something you'd bet your house on or is it a bit of a dream?

IMO, moment by moment experience is "new" and that is why we find ourselves here - to explore the boundary between computable (mechanistic) and non-computable spaces.

I'm beginning to think that fundamental Christianity would have been a better choice for you.

Meaning is a symbolic representation of a goal.

Serious point - please don't tell other people what their meaning is. It's theirs not yours. Fishing is not "a symbolic representation of a goal". It's fishing. Some things are exactly as they are. Most things actually..

We can probably agree on that much

Please don't assume.

I did read the rest, but man, what are you on? It feels like the 70s - is it LSD?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 2:40 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 4:57 PM Tangle has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 26 of 83 (891485)
01-31-2022 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
01-31-2022 3:20 PM


quote:
The past is.

What we record as the past is as fluid and conflicting as what is recorded in the Bibles. But the narrative is simply the narrative, it does not change the reality of what happened.


Okay so you're contrasting unreliable personal memories of the past with the actual past which is fixed immutable accurate and real.

I've no problem with that, but its not really an answer to the question. If the past exists in the present, how does it exist? Where is it stored? How is it accessed?

These are genuine questions of mine and not meant to lead you into a particular line of thinking.

Everything in the present moment is in flux. We see relative rates of change. The slow rates of change we perceive as fixed, but we know nothing is really fixed forever.

Recording everything becomes boring and redundant. Many types of creation involve subtracting that which detracts from the goal. So could deletion or compression be used upon that part of reality we call "the past"?

quote:
What you experience is simply a fantasy and will be whatever you create within your personal fantasy.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

Whenever I hear "is just" or "is simply", I see boundaries shifting around the definition of that which is serious and meaningful to that which is not serious or meaningful.

To say experience is simply fantasy is to diminish it and it diminishes the reality of the consequences of your actions upon others. That might feel nice for a while if the stresses and pressures of life are difficult to handle, but I don't think it is the best default position to take.

I take the position that felt meaning is real and important. Life is a game, yes, but what makes the game serious is threat of pain or loss. What makes the game meaningful is achieving goals with effort over time.

quote:
It is a GAN, nothing more.

While I am fascinated by the idea that physical reality could be generated by something analogous to a GAN, I don't see that this leads to the need to diminish or reduce.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 01-31-2022 3:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 01-31-2022 4:59 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 27 of 83 (891486)
01-31-2022 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
01-31-2022 4:47 PM


quote:
Please don't, if you want to know what I think just ask.

Okay what do you think?

quote:
Serious point - please don't tell other people what their meaning is. It's theirs not yours. Fishing is not "a symbolic representation of a goal". It's fishing. Some things are exactly as they are. Most things actually..

Well I'm not forcing you to have a philosophical intellectual conversation which usually involves defining terms...

I'm not telling you what is meaningful to you... I'm just saying that for anything to be meaningful to anyone it involves a goal, a desire, an intention.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2022 4:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 01-31-2022 5:13 PM Hangdawg13 has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 28 of 83 (891487)
01-31-2022 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 4:50 PM


Dawg writes:

If the past exists in the present, how does it exist? Where is it stored? How is it accessed?

HINT.

It's called "the past".

DAWG writes:

To say experience is simply fantasy is to diminish it and it diminishes the reality of the consequences of your actions upon others.

YAWN.

Experience has absolutely no meaning or reality beyond the individuals' fantasies.

Your behavior though does have reality.

Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 4:50 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 5:22 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 29 of 83 (891488)
01-31-2022 5:02 PM


OK, for those of us who may have been napping what is GAN?

Where in this thread was the acromion first used and defined?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 5:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 30 of 83 (891489)
01-31-2022 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 4:57 PM


Hemingway writes:

Okay what do you think?


About what exactly?

I'm not telling you what is meaningful to you... I'm just saying that for anything to be meaningful to anyone it involves a goal, a desire, an intention.

Does it now? Or is that you pushing your views onto me?

You made an assertion - I don't accept it. I don't even accept that life, the universe and everything has or needs meaning.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 4:57 PM Hangdawg13 has taken no action

  
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