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Hangdawg13
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Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 31 of 83 (891490)
01-31-2022 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
01-31-2022 5:02 PM


quote:
OK, for those of us who may have been napping what is GAN?
Where in this thread was the acromion first used and defined?

Generative Adversarial Network (GAN)

Using two neural networks - one trained to be the discriminator and one that will be trained by the discriminator to be a generator.

So you train a neural network on something like say... images of cats. Then you feed this neural network images generated by another one that are initially random noise, but the discriminator provides feedback to the generator on whether the image it created is more or less like a cat, and eventually the discriminator trains the generator to generate very realistic images of cats.

There is some ambiguity in what the generator will produce... in other words outcomes are probabilistic.

This fits nicely with physical reality where outcomes are probabilistic and possibly generated on demand for the observer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2022 5:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2022 7:36 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 32 of 83 (891491)
01-31-2022 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
01-31-2022 4:59 PM


quote:
HINT.

It's called "the past".


You said "The past is."

That implies it exists in the present.

You also indicated it was real and immutable...

but your dismissal of these questions now implies the past is gone and irretrievable.

Which is it?

quote:
YAWN.

Experience has absolutely no meaning or reality beyond the individuals' fantasies.

Your behavior though does have reality.


So you're saying our impacts on physical material reality are the only thing real and recorded in "the past", but our experiences are not real or recorded in "the past"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 01-31-2022 4:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 01-31-2022 6:38 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 33 of 83 (891493)
01-31-2022 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 5:22 PM


Dawg writes:

You said "The past is."

That implies it exists in the present.

You also indicated it was real and immutable...

but your dismissal of these questions now implies the past is gone and irretrievable.

Which is it?

Still thinking like a third year middleschooler there DAWG.

No, "The past is" does not imply it exists in the present.

It is called "The Past".

It is real and immutable because it did happen, and we cannot now change what did happen.

I also went on to try to explain to you that there is a difference between what actually happened and what is recorded, and, in many cases, what is believed.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 5:22 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 8:27 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 34 of 83 (891494)
01-31-2022 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 5:16 PM


Green Pill
So, adaptive neural nets. The advances continue. Is there something special about this tech, and what does this have to do with your dog and blades of grass? Are you positing a simulation hypothesis or one of the pills from the Matrix? The green one? I always hoped the Matrix remakes would introduce a green pill. It wouldn’t do anything except freshen your breath with a nice icy wintergreen.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 5:16 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 8:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 37 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 8:50 PM AZPaul3 has taken no action

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


(1)
Message 35 of 83 (891495)
01-31-2022 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
01-31-2022 6:38 PM


quote:
Still thinking like a third year middleschooler there DAWG.

Well yeah and you're still kind of being a bit of a dick, but that's ok Yeah, kids often take an interest in ontology and my curiosity in that department never ceased.

quote:
No, "The past is" does not imply it exists in the present.

Isn't "is" a present tense verb?

quote:
It is real and immutable because it did happen, and we cannot now change what did happen.

If it is not recorded or retrievable somehow - if it is truly gone forever - then the past is not fixed because there are an infinite number of pasts that could have led to this particular present.

quote:
I also went on to try to explain to you that there is a difference between what actually happened and what is recorded, and, in many cases, what is believed.

Sure, a person's memory can be an unreliable record of their past experience and should not be equated with the admin's copy of what actually happened. We're in agreement there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 01-31-2022 6:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 02-01-2022 7:12 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 36 of 83 (891496)
01-31-2022 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AZPaul3
01-31-2022 7:36 PM


Re: Green Pill
quote:
So, adaptive neural nets. The advances continue.

Yes... the story about how a GAN was invented is kind of funny... a programmer was chatting with buddies at a bar one evening and the idea for a GAN came to him and he immediately went home and coded it up before bed... a very simple idea with the potential to revolutionize a lot of things.

I recommend this YouTube channel, Two Minute Papers for a brief overview of lots of interesting developments in AI:
Two Minute Papers

Anyway, yes, I'm positing something like the simulation hypothesis. This environment is generated for the purpose of developing skills of agents just as we do for AI agents in simulated realities like this one:

OpenAI Plays Hide and Seek…and Breaks The Game!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2022 7:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2022 11:35 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 37 of 83 (891497)
01-31-2022 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AZPaul3
01-31-2022 7:36 PM


Re: Green Pill
IMO, it is an open question how and for how long and in what form the past is "stored".

When I said "upscaled" I mean taking a compressed lower resolution depiction and adding detail.

For example, here's a video by NVIDEA showing how they used a blocky low-res minecraft generated world and "upscaled" it to a more realistic world.
NVIDIA GANcraft

In some sense creation and art is about distilling meaning or that which is valuable or impactful. Part of this creation involves subtraction or deletion or negative space. Too much clutter obscures the message. Our lives consist of a lot of stuff, but not every moment or every perception is as meaningful as the rest. When you tell a person about your day, you compress your story to the meaningful bits and omit the mundane details. Or take Facebook... it was kind of fun at first but then people started taking pictures of their food and telling you every goddamned thought that entered their heads and it was cluttered up with irrelevant non-sense. Less is often more.

So if this reality is the result of an entity or entities attempting to fulfill a goal - even if that goal is merely exploration of what is new and possible to create and experience - then such an entity or entities would likely also be interested in deleting or compressing the irrelevant details to distill the important parts relevant to their goals.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 38 of 83 (891499)
01-31-2022 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 8:48 PM


Time For The Green Pill
Thank you for the links. I am somewhat familiar with neural nets. In another life I worked on propagation networks back in the 80’s. Been out for so long but I’m not surprised by anything these guys do.

As far as your discussion with jar about the past being stored, quantum theory already says that. It is a hard and fast rule in QFT that information is never lost but is encoded in the fields’ quantum states. The present state is the result of all interactions the particle experienced throughout its existence. Most of our equations have no preferred time component, therefor they work equally well in either direction. If you reversed time then interactions would undue themselves restoring past quantum states. The past, theoretically, can be uncovered intact by reversing the arrow of time. That’s not so easy to do in this universe.

But this is not what jar seems to be addressing. The past is some number of time clicks in reverse and unless you reverse time throughout the entire universe it is inaccessible. As jar said, "It is real and immutable because it did happen, and we cannot now change what did happen."

In your Message 35

quote:
If it is not recorded or retrievable somehow - if it is truly gone forever - then the past is not fixed because there are an infinite number of pasts that could have led to this particular present.

Evidence of past quantum values is here encoded in the present values. The past is here with us always. One demonstrable past with a single unalterable chain of causality. You just can’t get to it.

Or so my read on what our present science says. All subject to change with more data.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 8:48 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-01-2022 11:41 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 39 of 83 (891507)
02-01-2022 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hangdawg13
01-31-2022 8:27 PM


DAWG writes:

If it is not recorded or retrievable somehow - if it is truly gone forever - then the past is not fixed because there are an infinite number of pasts that could have led to this particular present.

But there is only one of those infinity number of pasts that DID lead to this point. That past is fixed. All the possible pasts that did not lead to this present are irrelevant.

Parts of it may never be known but where it is recorded, we can know. And what is recorded often tells us what WAS NOT recorded. The shape of fossil leaves tells us about temperatures, the size of fossil raindrops tells us how hard it was raining, minerals left in ice cores tells us about event that were unwitnessed.

If it is not recorded directly or indirectly then it's not gone forever, it's simply unknown.


My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Hangdawg13, posted 01-31-2022 8:27 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 40 of 83 (891515)
02-01-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by AZPaul3
01-31-2022 11:35 PM


Re: Time For The Green Pill
quote:
It is a hard and fast rule in QFT that information is never lost but is encoded in the fields’ quantum states. The present state is the result of all interactions the particle experienced throughout its existence. Most of our equations have no preferred time component, therefor they work equally well in either direction. If you reversed time then interactions would undue themselves restoring past quantum states. The past, theoretically, can be uncovered intact by reversing the arrow of time.

Would this be analogous to blockchain where you can "rewind" transactional history to see every transaction ever made?

I found this latest Lex Fridman interview of Stephen Wolfram very interesting as he is working on the rule of rules and suggests that physical events can be thought of as acting like a graph network which has come up as well in the cryptocurrency space.

Stephen Wolfram: Complexity and the Fabric of Reality | Lex Fridman Podcast #234

It fits with my belief in the "as above so below" or fractal holographic principle that the structures and patterns of reality repeat or rhyme at various scales... so the problems we face with neural networks and transactional history / trust / unique identity, etc also provide insight into the "transactions" or physical interactions that entangle particles.

So in your understanding of QFT, information is not lost. But haven't there been some experiments like the Quantum Eraser or others that seem to indicate "the past" is really determined by our current observation of present states? Could there be an "event horizon" beyond which an essentially infinite variety of initial conditions could have resulted in the present state?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 01-31-2022 11:35 PM AZPaul3 has replied

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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


(1)
Message 41 of 83 (891517)
02-01-2022 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
02-01-2022 7:12 AM


quote:
But there is only one of those infinity number of pasts that DID lead to this point. That past is fixed. All the possible pasts that did not lead to this present are irrelevant.

In your opinion this is axiomatic... a settled matter with no room for discussion. I get that. That is also my default naïve realism perspective with which I approach reality on a daily basis, but I am still open to questioning this axiom.

quote:
If it is not recorded directly or indirectly then it's not gone forever, it's simply unknown.

Some interpretations of QM lead to the notion that if something is not observed it is in superposition. This has led to the idea that reality is calculated on demand much like a simulated world is generated on demand in a game environment.

It doesn't matter the initial positions and velocities of the molecules of air and fuel in my car engine because in bulk they act predictably. We cannot go back and figure out what they were nor would it be interesting to do so. Since it is completely irrelevant and not observed, then IMO it is an open question whether the initial positions and velocities of those particles were ever actually calculated or whether they are only calculated "on demand" if you zoom in to study them.


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nwr
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Posts: 5972
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 42 of 83 (891520)
02-01-2022 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hangdawg13
02-01-2022 11:49 AM


That is also my default naïve realism perspective with which I approach reality on a daily basis, but I am still open to questioning this axiom.

I like that kind of questioning.

As best I can tell, the past is an inference from the present. And that's all it could possibly be.

An example: As best I can remember, yesterday I made a diary entry. Today, I can read that entry to see what I wrote.

Except that is wrong. When I read that entry, I am reading what is currently in the diary. I cannot know that it is what I wrote. Maybe it changed. And yes, I remember writing that in my diary. But that's my current memory, and might not be what actually happened.

The way that I look at it, is that we have a conventional theory of the past. I happen to believe that theory works very well, and in ordinary life I don't question it. But it still shows that we are using that theory to infer the past from the present. Theories, such as our conventional theory of the past, are accepted because of pragmatism. There is no guarantee that they are true.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 43 of 83 (891524)
02-01-2022 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by nwr
02-01-2022 12:27 PM


Why would it matter whether or not it's true?

When you read the diary, you read what is there.

What possible difference would it make if it were not what you actually wrote?


My Website: My Website

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5972
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 44 of 83 (891525)
02-01-2022 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
02-01-2022 3:23 PM


Yes, I pretty much agree that it doesn't really matter.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 45 of 83 (891529)
02-01-2022 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hangdawg13
02-01-2022 11:41 AM


Re: Time For The Green Pill
Would this be analogous to blockchain where you can "rewind" transactional history to see every transaction ever made?

I don’t see the analogy. Blockchain history is retrievable in extreme detail at any time now or in the future. The past is irretrievable in any practical sense. It did happen and its effects are always with us but unlike blockchain you cannot select any specific past time to see what happened and with blockchain you don’t have to destroy later blocks in the chain to get back to the one you want. When you reverse the arrow of time you have to destroy the future quantum information to get back to the target timeframe. I don’t see it.

Stephen Wolfram: Complexity and the Fabric of Reality

Please be careful with Wolfram. He’s a genius, as he himself will gladly testify. His ego is quite large and for good reason. He is, after all, a genius.

He has developed some very useful systems for sure, however his new science has not lived up to the continued hype with actual development. His automata systems have not replaced mathematics as the platform of choice for modeling systems. He may be right, but right now no one seems to understand his stuff enough to replace the utility math produces.

I caution skepticism on Wolfram’s claims until he can actually do something with them.

So in your understanding of QFT, information is not lost. But haven't there been some experiments like the Quantum Eraser or others that seem to indicate "the past" is really determined by our current observation of present states?

“Which way” information on a double slit experiment and attempts to erase that information (delayed choice) in the experimental apparatus doesn’t change the past. There is no erased “which way” information since the equations of state, the wave function, the Schrödinger equation, applies to the system as a whole and not just the function at one slit or one detector. The wave function is set for the entire system and includes the observer. The result is an observation that is in keeping with the wave function probabilities.

With a double slit you see the interference pattern. Add detectors and the pattern (appears) to go away. Yes that is weird.

Now set up your eraser and note that the interference pattern returns. Except there is an issue with the set up. At each of the eraser detectors you get the expected interference pattern. Combining those patterns creates the original non-interference pattern. Nothing has actually been erased. There was no delayed choice.

This is a YouTube video that explains the above. Dr. Sabine Hossenfelder explains better than I.

The Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser, Debunked

Could there be an "event horizon" beyond which an essentially infinite variety of initial conditions could have resulted in the present state?

I’m sorry, I don’t even know what that means. If our present cosmological models are right there could only be one initial condition (exceptionally low entropy) at the beginning. An infinite number of initial conditions would mean infinitely high entropy. To the best of our knowledge starting a universe with infinite high entropy produces nothing.
Can you clarify?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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