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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2207
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 46 of 83 (891534)
02-01-2022 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by AZPaul3
02-01-2022 4:53 PM


Re: Time For The Green Pill
AZPaul3 asks:
Could there be an "event horizon" beyond which an essentially infinite variety of initial conditions could have resulted in the present state?

I’m sorry, I don’t even know what that means. If our present cosmological models are right there could only be one initial condition (exceptionally low entropy) at the beginning. An infinite number of initial conditions would mean infinitely high entropy. To the best of our knowledge starting a universe with infinite high entropy produces nothing.
Can you clarify?

I think Hangdawg is just saying that the one initial condition becomes unknowable if you try to extrapolate beyond some point in time
and any guess on what it was back then is just as good as any other.

Is that right, Hangdawg?

NOTE: for those of you watching at home, "initial condition", referred to in the singular is meant to stand in for "the complete set of initial conditions at the moment in question".

Edited by xongsmith, : forgot to


"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."

- xongsmith, 5.7d


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Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 47 of 83 (891540)
02-02-2022 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
01-28-2022 7:55 PM


Re: EEEEK!! Help!! Help!!
But but...the spirits fighting in my head ARE real.....either that or its juzt high blood sugar! ....anyway nice hearing from you Hangdawg.

I remember you quite well.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8494
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 48 of 83 (891542)
02-02-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
02-02-2022 9:27 AM


Re: EEEEK!! Help!! Help!!
Spirits fighting in your head doesn't sound terribly real to me.The word delusional springs to mind.

adjective: delusional
characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5972
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 49 of 83 (891544)
02-02-2022 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
02-02-2022 9:27 AM


Re: EEEEK!! Help!! Help!!
But but...the spirits fighting in my head ARE real...

Spirits fighting in your head?

I think you have been drinking too heavily.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 02-02-2022 9:27 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 50 of 83 (891585)
02-04-2022 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nwr
02-02-2022 11:25 AM


To Fix The Impossible Fix
I don't drink! (I no longer smoke weedo either)

I believe in irrational things. Initially, my beliefs provided comfort. It feels good to be exclusive, chosen, saved, or enlightened. (take your pick)

I later became unafraid to question God, even as I initiated the conversation with Him (through prayer), and believed 100% that I would somehow receive answers eventually in some way shape or form. I think that this expectation alone is what separates believers from the rest who have done as jar suggests and "thrown God away." When someone no longer believes, they essentially deny their initial "saved" or salvation/sanctification experience which made them a "believer" in the first place.

For Hangdawg, (Let's go, Brandon!) it happened through college, education, and rational thinking. I would surmise that this pattern is similar for many of you here at EvC. I would also wager that fewer conservatives become ex-believers than do liberals/Progressives. The political demographic at EvC supports this hypothesis. I'm not saddened by this de-conversion. An honest and thoughtful de-conversion is preferable to trying to maintain a house of cards in the light of evidence-based thinking. It sucks, though. I would rather gamble on future human survival through rescue than through mandatory responsibility.

And the evidence shows that humans of both persuasions are collectively failing. I would rather pray for a miracle than become forced to go all McGuyver and fix the impossible fix.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by nwr, posted 02-02-2022 11:25 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5972
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 51 of 83 (891591)
02-04-2022 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
02-04-2022 7:25 AM


Re: To Fix The Impossible Fix
I would rather gamble on future human survival through rescue than through mandatory responsibility.

How about Christian responsibility, as in "love your neighbor". How about the Christian responsibility to follow the teachings of Jesus?

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 52 of 83 (891594)
02-04-2022 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by nwr
02-04-2022 12:05 PM


Re: To Fix The Impossible Fix
I can't argue with that! Usually, when I argue here at EvC I react rather than respond. I am so certain uncertain of my beliefs that I defend them without thinking. (Which is no defense at all! )

But I blaim the blood sugars. my recent A1C was 13.3! I almost passed out at work one day. I do have a new endocrinologist and am now taking my insulin.

Hangdawg, do you even believe that a higher power(anyone wiser than humans) exists at all in any way shape or form? Or did you throw the holy baby out with the bathwater?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nwr, posted 02-04-2022 12:05 PM nwr has seen this message

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 53 of 83 (891596)
02-04-2022 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
02-01-2022 3:23 PM


Getting Wound Up Before Work
The old Source vs Content argument, eh? Does that mean that humans are hung up on Source? Would it make any difference if my Nephew fooled around and made music that sounded like Mozart?

If Jesus teachings were simply stories in a book told round a campfire, and if any random human could be attributed as the Source and that source was insignificant compared to the Content, it would explain why people fall for the idea that most books of the NT were written by multiple anonymous authors.

And if you are gonna suggest that Source (Men who knew Jesus) was irrelevant, how could we in any way assign a value to anonymous content, be it science, scripture, or the Vedas?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


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 Message 43 by jar, posted 02-01-2022 3:23 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 54 of 83 (891601)
02-04-2022 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
02-04-2022 3:46 PM


Re: Getting Wound Up Before Work
You can't really be as stupid as your posts indicate but maybe you are.

Phat writes:

And if you are gonna suggest that Source (Men who knew Jesus) was irrelevant, how could we in any way assign a value to anonymous content, be it science, scripture, or the Vedas?

You assign the value based on how the content relates to reality, to what is actually contained in the content regardless of the source.

In Genesis 2&3 it is the serpent that tells the truth and the god that lies and withholds information.


My Website: My Website

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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 55 of 83 (891644)
02-07-2022 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by xongsmith
02-01-2022 7:26 PM


Re: Time For The Green Pill
quote:
I think Hangdawg is just saying that the one initial condition becomes unknowable if you try to extrapolate beyond some point in time
and any guess on what it was back then is just as good as any other.

Yes.

The random vacuum fluctuations combined with chaos theory mean that you can only go back so far in time before there is a horizon where initial condition(s) are unknowable and a practically infinite variety of initial conditions could have lead to the same present. The larger the structure, the more interactions it has and so the further back in time this horizon exists. An interaction could be thought of as something becoming "known".

And now I'm going to go off the rails a bit and you may or may not agree...

You could think of it as if you are walking down a tile path and as you walk the tiles arrange themselves into a firm path at your present location but both ahead and behind the tiles begin to separate and float apart from each other such that it is uncertain both where you're going and where you've been.

If the past is inferred from the present and the future is unknowable, then the future could entirely change your inferred notion of the contents of the past such that the past is also unknowable.

Another way to think of it... the present moment could be a superposition of all possible pasts... and that which is a "possible" past is a past in which certain things became "known" and of course there is a debate about what it means for something to be "known" and what role the observer plays... but for example, the interference pattern could be thought of as a superposition of possible pasts, but if it is known which slit, then the set of possible pasts are reduced by knowing which slit this is reflected in a present change to the interference pattern.

One more way to think of it and then I'll stop....

One objection to the multiverse hypothesis is that it destroys meaning because where you are at this moment was not at all chosen by you but is entirely random as there are an infinite variety of you out there all making slightly different choices.

My answer to this goes back to the notion of "pattern" implying boundaries which are choices. When you look around the room you do not see merely an infinite sea of color and shade, you see edges, handles, seats, tools with which you may interact. Your brain chooses or imposes boundaries on the sea of color and shade according to what is likely to be most useful to you at the moment. Similarly, your path through the multiverse could be like your soul looking at an infinite sea of "color and shade" (possible you's) and choosing to identify with that which is most likely to be useful to it in achieving its goals. It is this choice which "realizes" a potential tool into an actuality that achieves a goal.


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 Message 46 by xongsmith, posted 02-01-2022 7:26 PM xongsmith has seen this message

Replies to this message:
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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 56 of 83 (891646)
02-07-2022 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
02-02-2022 9:27 AM


Re: EEEEK!! Help!! Help!!
Hey Phat,

quote:
But but...the spirits fighting in my head ARE real...

In my worldview... "spirit" is equal to "agent" ...an entity that has agency, or ability to make choices.

The universe is composed of mechanisms - things that reliably repeat - things that have no agency. But there are boundaries between mechanisms where things do not always reliably repeat resulting in the overall path being probablistic rather than deterministic.

This boundary or surface of the mechanism is an opportunity for an agent (or spirit if you prefer) to exert influence.

So all "objects" or "mechanisms" have boundaries/surfaces upon which an agent may interact, but those with low surface area / volume ratio have less potential for interaction.

So a pair of gears for example have low surface area to volume. The boundary between the mechanism is a tiny surface where the teeth mesh. And if operated within design parameters, very low probability a gear tooth will break and the mechanism will fail to reliably repeat.

A light bulb might be considered to have a bit more surface area / volume as it is operated by a long thin wire and delicate switch.

A microprocessor composed of billions of transistors which operates on a very slight voltage potential change across a very tiny distance could be thought of as having a much higher surface area to volume.

And the human brain with neurons that either fire or don't fire upon very slight voltage potentials and are composed of microtubules built of billions of molecules arranged with dipole bonds has unfathomably more "surface area" or opportunities for the mechanism to not reliably repeat.

We don't know what governs the coupling constant between agent and the boundaries of the mechanism, but this coupling represents another mechanism which is itself subject to influence by entity with agency...

All that to say, the spirits fighting in your head are real. ;-)


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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 57 of 83 (891647)
02-07-2022 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
02-04-2022 3:25 PM


Re: To Fix The Impossible Fix
quote:
But I blaim the blood sugars. my recent A1C was 13.3! I almost passed out at work one day. I do have a new endocrinologist and am now taking my insulin.

Have you tried intermittent fasting?

I worked with a guy who was diabetic, about 150 lbs overweight, ate a shit diet, almost died a few years back and had to have most of his intestines removed...

anyway, last time I saw him he had slimmed down quite a bit and said he was almost off insulin by eating one meal a day and taking (doctor prescribed) amphetamines.

quote:
Hangdawg, do you even believe that a higher power(anyone wiser than humans) exists at all in any way shape or form?

I believe that reality is a nested set of agents attempting to achieve goals. The "highest" power also has the simplest goal: to not get bored... to create and destroy.

From this highest power spawns lower powers that have their own goals which create environments which spawn still lower powers and their environments... all trying to achieve goals within their environments.

So your "Soul" is like the entity at the next shell of reality above this one... it is like the agent being trained on a million simulated experiences to get better at achieving a goal. To "sin" is to miss the mark... not hit your goal. You get feedback when you die on how close you came to hitting the mark and how far you fell short (sinned). Your experiences inform your soul improving its ability to achieve its goals. Souls don't have to be thought of as distinct entities with hard boundaries but could be thought of as like a venn diagram... concentric circles of familiarity... such that a whole species has something like a super soul.

The "gods" that made us are a "higher power" in the sense that they occupy a space which is an environment in the next shell outside of this one, but have to be understood as having their own conflicting and competing and at times cooperating goals and limitations.


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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 58 of 83 (891649)
02-07-2022 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
02-04-2022 7:25 AM


Re: To Fix The Impossible Fix
quote:
For Hangdawg, (Let's go, Brandon!)

Although I typically avoid blatant self-promotion I did buy myself a "Let's Go Brandon" t-shirt recently... have received many compliments on it although when wearing it in certain places in Austin I feel as though I might get physically attacked...

In other news,

I now see Christianity as something like a memetic life form... a mind worm that provided some benefits to its host while also feeding off them. It was a way of successfully conveying esoteric information through time with story although it sacrificed its hosts who took it too literally.

Christianity also seems to be something like an empathy program... an effort to steer humanity towards goals reality to empathy as opposed to the dominate form of predation from the past.

This empathy program might have been promoted by elite Romans in a cynical effort by elites to further domesticate their flock of sheeple and make them easier to manage and make their cities more stable.

We are apex predators who have the most delicate babies requiring the most care of any species and this has led us to a kind of crisis self-conflict where our empathetic qualities are at war with our suppressed predatory qualities. Civilization requires the empathetic qualities to be emphasized but this results in a lack of conflict which weakens the species. Do you want you or your progeny to be wolf-like or chihuahua like?


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 59 of 83 (891657)
02-07-2022 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Hangdawg13
02-07-2022 12:18 PM


What is waving?
The random vacuum fluctuations combined with chaos theory mean that you can only go back so far in time before there is a horizon where initial condition(s) are unknowable and a practically infinite variety of initial conditions could have lead to the same present.

Can you show any reasoning for this conjecture? I read the words vacuum fluctuation and chaos theory and think buzzwords without any connection.

How do vacuum fluctuations (after you define them, please) alter the reality of the past? How does chaos theory (after you define what that is) alter the uber-determinist reality of the past?

How can either one or both change a fait accompli and destroy causality? Show your mechanism.

If the past is inferred from the present and the future is unknowable, then the future could entirely change your inferred notion of the contents of the past such that the past is also unknowable.

And if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings …

The past is not inferred by the present. The past is the creator of the present. That is the basis of causality from the arrow of time.

And no, you cannot show any instance in reality where the past was changed by any future event. Not even the most bombastic quantum erasure setup can show any such thing without completely misunderstanding and misusing the concept of the wave function and its role in quantum systems.

Another way to think of it... the present moment could be a superposition of all possible pasts …

Except it isn’t. We know with a great deal of certainty from observation that no one has shown a causality violation in any system we have seen. Violations that your "superposition" scheme would rittle throughout all of spacetime. Quite the opposite, we are highly confident that the chain of causality from the past has not been altered by any mechanism at any time. And we can take that all the way back to the beginning. No one can show otherwise.

the interference pattern could be thought of as a superposition of possible pasts,

Only if you are trying to force a prior conclusion on the system. The interference pattern is, in fact, a hard and fast observable result based on the spread of the wave function from the apparatus, including the observer. It is not a superposition of anything. You misuse the concept and apply it inappropriately.

Your math would have to be way twisted to show any superposition of past events. The phenomena is a superposition of wave functions. Wave functions are resolutions to the Schrödinger equation. What happens when two electrons careen off each other? The Schrödinger equation tells you the probable results. The wave functions give you the probability of finding, upon observation, specific quantum attributes that result from an interaction.

How do you apply Schrödinger to a static past event with no moving parts? There are no interactions to observe. Your use of superposition is bogus. You have no idea what the concepts you use so freely actually are or how they work.

You are spouting bullshit.

Why the fantasy conjecture? What are you trying to justify? Trying to justify your god's majik? Some other religionist wet dream?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-07-2022 12:18 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-07-2022 4:20 PM AZPaul3 has replied
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Hangdawg13
Member
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 60 of 83 (891662)
02-07-2022 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by AZPaul3
02-07-2022 2:50 PM


Re: What is waving?
quote:
Why the fantasy conjecture? What are you trying to justify? Trying to justify your god's majik? Some other religionist wet dream?

Just trying to refine my map to include all the data points and features I've encountered. Maybe your lens on reality is polarized to filter out some of the data points that I include so we have created different maps.

I'll try to come back to the rest of your questions another day, but I've got to work now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by AZPaul3, posted 02-07-2022 2:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by AZPaul3, posted 02-07-2022 5:24 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
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