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Author Topic:   Coffee House Musings on Creationist Topic Proposals
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1231 of 1429 (903249)
12-07-2022 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1230 by Theodoric
12-07-2022 9:10 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Theo writes:
Pythagoras didn't believe in Jesus.
That's because Pythagoras lived from 580BC to 520BC before Jesus stepped out of eternity into time as a baby. Of course, you will demand evidence from me, which I don't have. My point was that you can't believe in someone before they were born.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1230 by Theodoric, posted 12-07-2022 9:10 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1232 by Theodoric, posted 12-07-2022 9:29 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1252 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 1232 of 1429 (903250)
12-07-2022 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1231 by Phat
12-07-2022 9:20 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Again point missed. How could Newton believe in Evolution, before it was thought up?
I thought Jesus has always existed? Don't answer. Pulling your chain.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1231 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 9:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(3)
Message 1233 of 1429 (903253)
12-07-2022 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1224 by Dredge
12-07-2022 12:44 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Your comment, although entertaining, didn't answer my question.
"Why do you need to believe that all life shares a common ancestor to examine and compare the DNA of humans and other animals?"--Dredge
Wrong question. There is no "need to believe". You either want to understand how biology or you don't. That's the choice. If you want to understand biology then evolution and UCD are the best tools for understanding biology. If you don't want to understand biology and instead protect a failing theology, then you make the arguments you are making. It's a choice, not a need.
For example, can you explain why there is more sequence conservation in exons than in introns when we align orthologous sequence between disparate species? What can we use from ID/creationism to help explain this pattern? I can't think of anything. However, this is EXACTLY the pattern of sequence conservation we would expect from evolution and UCD. Exactly.
What about the pattern of base substitutions? Can ID/creationism explain to us why we see more transitions than transversions when we compare single nucleotide polymorphisms between different species? No. Evolution and UCD can, and they allow us to understand what we are seeing in biology.
What about the pattern of shared and derived features? Can ID/creationism explain why we see a nested hierarchy instead of some other pattern? No. However, this pattern is exactly what we would expect to see if evolution and UCD are true. Those concepts allow us to understand what we are seeing in biology.
I could go on and on and on. You either want to understand biology or you want to protect a failed theology. Your choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1224 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 12:44 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1235 by dwise1, posted 12-07-2022 11:41 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 1234 of 1429 (903254)
12-07-2022 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1221 by Dredge
12-07-2022 12:05 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
Show me a scientific paper that says animal models are used because of UCD.
I already did that.
https://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&m=902182#m902183

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 12:05 AM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
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Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 1235 of 1429 (903256)
12-07-2022 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1233 by Taq
12-07-2022 10:42 AM


Re: UCD evidence
One of the funniest things about "creation science" is how much effort leading creationists have to put into explaining away why the evidence looks for all the world like evolution.
Rather than always having to discount and refute and explain away the evidence, why don't they just look at what the evidence is telling them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1233 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 10:42 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1236 by Theodoric, posted 12-07-2022 12:04 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 1237 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 12:42 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1236 of 1429 (903257)
12-07-2022 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by dwise1
12-07-2022 11:41 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Or present the evidence that points toward creationism.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by dwise1, posted 12-07-2022 11:41 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 1237 of 1429 (903259)
12-07-2022 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by dwise1
12-07-2022 11:41 AM


Re: UCD evidence
dwise1 writes:
One of the funniest things about "creation science" is how much effort leading creationists have to put into explaining away why the evidence looks for all the world like evolution.
That comes from their raison d'etre for participating in these discussions. Are ID/creationists interested in actually figuring out why we see what we do? No. They are here to protect their beliefs. ID/creationists aren't interested in explanations. They are interested in beliefs. Science, on the other hand, is all about explanations, beliefs be damned.
This is why you see people like Dredge who use phrases like "need to believe". That's just not how it works. It is projection on the part of ID/creationists. As is true of many other areas of life, what people accuse others of is often a strong clue as to what those accusers are actually doing themselves. ID/creationists have a dogmatic belief that must be adhered to, so they assume it is the same for scientists. They never stop and think that scientists follow the evidence without reference to beliefs. Instead, we see ID/creationists labelling theories with "-isms" while calling them religions. Why? They are trying to level the playing field, and/or battling their own cognitive dissonance which is often the source of projection.
For Dredge, UCD has to be a belief because his worldview just can't cope with UCD being an evidenced based conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by dwise1, posted 12-07-2022 11:41 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1242 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 1:32 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1238 of 1429 (903262)
12-07-2022 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1228 by Dredge
12-07-2022 8:28 AM


Re: UCD evidence
Dredge writes:
This superstition includes the hilarious belief that humans and potatoes, for example, evolved from the same organism. I kid you not ... that's what Darwinoids actually believe!!
This sounded so outlandish that I had to investigate. I came up with Researchers trace the potato's origins, learn about its untapped potential.
Am I missing something? Can you show me the source that led you to that conclusion?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1228 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 8:28 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1240 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 1:25 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 1253 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1239 of 1429 (903263)
12-07-2022 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1133 by FLRW
11-23-2022 12:59 PM


FLRW writes:
several researchers have proposed that early life was characterized by rampant horizontal gene transfer
Those researchers wouldn't know ... they're just guessing. Their proposal can't be tested and is therefore worthless as science. No one can ever know what process produced the history of life on earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1133 by FLRW, posted 11-23-2022 12:59 PM FLRW has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1241 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 1:26 PM Dredge has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(2)
Message 1240 of 1429 (903264)
12-07-2022 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1238 by Phat
12-07-2022 1:18 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Phat writes:
This sounded so outlandish that I had to investigate.
All life shares a common ancestor. If you pick any two species you can trace their family tree back until you arrive at that shared ancestor. The shared ancestor between potatoes and humans, or rather animals and plants, would be a simpler single celled eukaryote, something along the lines of modern protists. The shared ancestor would be neither a potato nor a human.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1238 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 1:18 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1244 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 7:40 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(4)
Message 1241 of 1429 (903265)
12-07-2022 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1239 by Dredge
12-07-2022 1:23 PM


Dredge writes:
Those researchers wouldn't know ... they're just guessing. Their proposal can't be tested and is therefore worthless as science.
It can be tested by measuring phylogenetic signal in shared DNA sequences. The fact that you have to pretend that this evidence doesn't exist says quite a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1239 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 1:23 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by Dredge, posted 12-08-2022 9:09 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1242 of 1429 (903267)
12-07-2022 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1237 by Taq
12-07-2022 12:42 PM


Evilutionists vs Creotards
Taq writes:
...ID/creationists aren't interested in explanations. They are interested in beliefs. Science, on the other hand, is all about explanations, beliefs be damned.
To be honest, I never understood Biblical Creationists much either. Of course, God *could* have tricked science, but why on Earth would He need to do that?
My only beef with "scientists" is when they try and prove that Jesus never existed. Beyond that, I respect science. And is a guy who builds a biblical Theme Park near Cinncinati any wiser than a Hedge Fund Manager who has a bit of an ego and likes to write books?

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” - Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
Nor are Democrats the best party or the only one we should have. -Phat,2022 addressing The Peanut Gallery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1237 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 12:42 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1243 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-07-2022 2:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1254 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 1243 of 1429 (903270)
12-07-2022 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1242 by Phat
12-07-2022 1:32 PM


Re: Evilutionists vs Creotards
My only beef with "scientists" is when they try and prove that Jesus never existed.
Can you point to a single scientist who worked on a project to "try and prove that Jesus never existed" or a single paper written by a scientist "trying to prove that Jesus never existed?" That's a lot different from pointing out that there is not a single scrap of evidence that Jesus ever existed.
Beyond that, I respect science.
Yeah, right.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1242 by Phat, posted 12-07-2022 1:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 1244 of 1429 (903282)
12-07-2022 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1240 by Taq
12-07-2022 1:25 PM


Re: UCD evidence
Taq writes:
If you pick any two species you can trace their family tree back until you arrive at that shared ancestor.
Hilarious. It's amazing how many people believe that Darwinoid superstition ... an atheist fairy tale foisted on the gullible masses by atheist scientists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1240 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 1:25 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1245 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2022 8:19 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 1246 by Theodoric, posted 12-07-2022 9:36 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 1256 by Taq, posted 12-08-2022 11:35 AM Dredge has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1245 of 1429 (903283)
12-07-2022 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1244 by Dredge
12-07-2022 7:40 PM


Re: UCD evidence
It's amazing how many people believe that Darwinoid superstition ...
I keep telling you, Altar Boy, those meat-crackers do bad things to your head. If you truly believe that crap then you have ingested enough of the poison. Stop, man.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1244 by Dredge, posted 12-07-2022 7:40 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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