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Author | Topic: The War in Europe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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Tanypteryx writes: I thought the last couple generations of fighter jets are hand made and take 18 months to build and cost a billion dollars? Closer to $100 million per for F-35's, but not sure about build time. F-16's are still being produced with a cost of around $20 million per plane. Munitions and ground support add to the price.
Or is it more like the President, or Congress, or the Pentagon says, "We're going to supply these." and then they send an order for X number of tanks, etc. to the manufacturer, and then the manufacturer contacts all their suppliers and order the parts and then?... I figure it's like donating to a food bank. Get rid of the stock you need least and replace if absolutely necessary. I don't think anyone would be surprised if the US military has surplus.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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Phat writes: If Putin beats us, it will be through dethroning the dollar itself. Then he has a snowball's chance in hell of beating us. The dollar is the only game in town for the next few decades. No other country has anything close to the money supply, stability, or reduced conflict of interest in trade that the US has. Only about 10% of the US GDP is from trade while nearly half of Russia's GDP is from trade. The world won't use a currency for trade if the country holding that currency is so heavily tied into trade. It's too easy for them to manipulate their own currency for the upper hand in trade. Not to mention that Russia doesn't have 1% of the money needed to fulfill the volume of daily international trades and the Ruble's value is plummeting compared to the dollar. BRICS is pretty much 90% China, and China won't let their money leave their country. Currently, there aren't even any other pretenders to throne of de facto international currency of choice.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
Percy writes: And neither have the Russian people turned against Putin, though that's only because all meaningful opponents are in jail or dead. Re-establishing the Russian Empire probably is popular amongst ethnic Russians. The demographics of ethnic Russians is really horrible, so they probably only have 1 or 2 generations left before they can even attempt something like this. Russia has also scared away all of the countries that they needed for industrial technology, especially for oil production. While they may have short term success, the long term doesn't look that bright at the moment.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: A hidden history of diplomacy that came up short—but holds lessons for future negotiations. There was already a deal in place and it was called the Ukrainian border. Russia violated that agreement. They will violate any subsequent agreement. Putin wants to reestablish the border of the old USSR. He wants a series of satellite states that stand between other European powers and the wide open plains of Russia. This includes countries like Poland and the Baltic states. This process started with the invasion of countries like Crimea, and it won't stop if Russia is given a portion of Ukraine. Supporting Ukraine in their fight for their country will keep American military forces out of a war with Russia. That's what some people can't understand. After Ukraine, Putin's next move is to invade NATO countries that border Russia. The US has sworn to protect those NATO countries with US troops. Pushing Russia completely out of Ukraine is the only sane outcome to this war. Once Russia is out, Ukraine joins NATO and NATO countries step up with to secure Ukraine's border.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
LNA writes: You do know that the Baltic states are part of NATO, correct? Yes.
And your part about, "That's what some people can't understand", has to be a joke? Right? What part are you referring to? That Putin is trying to reestablish the old USSR Iron Curtain that plugged all of the strategic geographic gaps leading to the Russian plains? That people are unaware of Putin's plan? That sacrificing US dollars is preferrable to sacrificing US troops? That stopping Putin and pushing him out of Ukraine is in the best interest of the US? Which part exactly? Geopolitical Analyst Peter Zeihan on Russia’s “War to the End” - Georgia Today
Ukraine's Olecsandyr Chalyi said: April 2022 peace settlement CHALYI APRIL 2022 PEACE SETTLEMENT Given Ukraine turned it down, it must have meant Russia would hold the land they currently occupied. That's a no go. All they would do is build up troops in that region, and then try again to take the rest. The one and only requirement for any peace treaty is Russia's complete withdrawal from Ukraine. That's it.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: Russia was supportive of a ten to fifteen years plan to figure out the solution for parts of Eastern Ukraine. The solution is that Russia immediately leaves all of Ukraine.
Obviously, Russia was in favor of the Democratic solution for the respective parts (relatively local referendums) Ukraine openly bragged about executing Mayors of Eastern Ukraine towns, in 2022, saying they were fifth columnists. It's the Russians who are executing mayors and local officials. ukraine executing mayors - Google Search
The agreement was hashed out and Putin is certain Zelinski supported it. Why would you trust anything that man says? And why should Ukraine give up one inch of their soil? Russia didn't respect the Ukrainian borders when they invaded the first time. Why would they respect them in the future? All you would see is a series of invasions, each one whittling away what is left of Ukraine.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: You buy too much propaganda. It is rather hilarious that you follow that sentence with a bunch of propaganda.
Ukraine openly removed democratically elected parliamentary members, when parties were banned. They banned the pro-Russian parties. Not exactly shocking given how hard the Ukrainians fought to get rid of the previous Russian puppet government that was effectively a kleptocracy. Is it so terrible that a country wants to protect its sovereignty by removing influence from other countries, not to mention the systemic corruption? By the way, there were 349 registered and legal political parties in Ukraine as of 2020.
Democracy has been over in Ukraine for a decade. Any evidence of this whatsoever?
Mayors, who were Ukrainian citizens, were killed. Yes, by invading Russian soldiers.
Ukraine outlaws individuals - infact militias execute their fellow Ukrainian citizens. That's on the list of known Russian misinformation.
quote: You are spreading known Russian propaganda.
Russia wanted to give Ukraine a deal, you say Ukraine did not want a deal, and because of the disagreements over the eastern parts of Ukraine? ( Your position is that Ukraine - itself, not due to western government's pressure - rejected the 2022 deal, due to the refusal to compromise on Eastern Ukraine's questionable status?) Deal? A foreign country invades and takes part of your country, and you make a "deal" for them to keep it? Do you work at a Russian propaganda farm?
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: The last truly democratically elected leader of Ukraine got run out of the country 10 years ago. He did not cheat to win, when he won. Everybody got to vote. Who? Yanukovych? Are you kidding me? Do you mean the Russian puppet who escaped to Russia after all of his corruption was uncovered? And cheating on elections?
quote: Yanukovych used violence against voters and election officials to gain power.
He was actually as moderate as they come. As pragmatic as they come Do you work for the Russian government? Added in edit:
quote:
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: Taq already said "kleptocracy" is an excuse for outlawing parties and politicians.(Read what he said closely) quote: I would call embezzlement of 37 billion to be an issue.
He then said supporting "Russian propaganda" is a reason for bans. Acting on behalf of Russia is a good reason for bans.
RUSSIA does not want the eastern provinces to be part of Russia. The ethnic Russians want freedom and probably autonomy. After the bloodshed, they possibly want an independent nation
That's an internal Ukrainian issue. It's their country. It is not a justification for invasion. Yes, there is tension between the parts of Ukraine, but that is for Ukraine to deal with. They are a sovereign country. And yes, Russia does want that land, and all of Ukraine. They want all of the territory that was once controlled by the former USSR. They will spread disinformation and propaganda to meet those goals, and you swallow it hook, line, and sinker.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
LNA writes: The same thing about corruption is said about every leader - even Zelinski. So you don't deny massive corruption on the part of Yanukovych? Instead, you try to cover it up by making baseless allegations about others?
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: The corruption is almost off topic.This is boring, typical stuff. Off topic? He was in Putin's pocket, and horrendously corrupt. The killing of protestors was another issue:
quote: You go on and on about Ukrainian citizens being killed.
The election issues do not concern his win. It concerns various local events, and he is accused of not doing enough to stop it. You are quite right. I removed that part of the post before I realized you replied. My apologies.
Any claims that he was trying to inflame a delicate society is probably propaganda. What are you on about? Yanukovych was as corrupt as they come, and in Putin's pocket. He even fled there when he was ousted. This is the setting for what we have today. Russia lost their influence in Ukraine, so now they are invading. It is as simple as that.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: Mayor Volodymyr Struk He was convicted outside of the courts by a "people's tribunal" for treason after the invasion by Russia had already begun. He was accused of working with Russia to help support the Russian invasion. Should Struk have been brought before an actual court and tried? Absolutely. Is such action during a hot war too surprising? No. If you are being invaded by a hostile foreign power and one of your citizens is actively helping with that invasion, well . . . There is little doubt he was a traitor to his country. More importantly, Struk was executed AFTER the invasion, so it couldn't have been a justification for the invasion.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
LNA writes:
The issue of who shot at the protestors,in 2014, is admitted by even current President Zelinski, to be unresolved. The corruption issue is nothing that distinguishes one Ukrainian President from another. Yanukovych was elected as a pragmatist who wanted to bridge the gap between Europe and Russia. He wanted support from Ukrainians who fought on both sides of World War 2. The 2010 local events were in the context of his pragmatic party enjoying record popularity. He was not trying to inflame and divide the society. How does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? Russia already took Crimea from Ukraine after it lost influence in Ukraine with the ousting of Yanukovych. In 2022, Russia tried to take the whole of Ukraine. Now you think Ukraine should take a "deal" where they give up yet another chunk of their country? They already did that with Crimea. Russia isn't going to stop until they control all of Ukraine. And they don't want to stop with Ukraine.
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3 |
Struk did not do anything BEFORE the invasion. Would you agree that since Struk was executed after the Russian invasion started that his execution could not have been a justification for the invasion?
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Taq Member Posts: 10348 Joined: Member Rating: 6.3
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LNA writes: My biggest gripe with you is that you seem to feel that the available evidence indicates that Russia wants to take-over Ukraine. Russia marched their military over the Ukraine border and towards Kyiv. What more evidence do you need? When you march your military into another country and towards the seat of government you are taking over a country. Period.
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