The War in Europe

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When has post-Tzarist Russia EVER had an ideological underpinning, which WAS NOT built around providing worldwide support (if invited, and without imposing anything on any nation) support for oppressed peoples, who suffered colonialism and discrimination?

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Pretty much always. I don’t think that applied when they invaded Finland, for instance. Or the Baltic states. And they’ve got quite a record in oppressing people. Let’s not forget the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia - to restore Warsaw Pact control when the Czech people were getting their freedom back. I don’t think NATO has done anything that bad.And what is “anti-racist” in conquering your neighbours?

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Wow, you are ignorant of Finland.

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I notice that you don’t actually bother to support your assertion. Or even to dispute the other examples I mentioned.What has a neo-Nazi coming from Finland in 1993 have to do with the Russian invasion years before he was born ? Oh right, it’s just a distraction because you have nothing.It doesn’t matter how nasty and dishonest you are. I won’t submit to you any more than I did to any of the other lying bigots who came through here,

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LNA would likely argue that you feel that way only because you have benefited from the largely white privilege that NATO offered.

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LNA would have to actually point out things equally bad that NATO had done. Crushing freedom to maintain an oppressive hegemony is pretty bad. NATO actions in Libya and Kosovo for instance don’t go that far. And in Kosovo at least NATO really were helping an oppressed minority.And LNA seems to be a white person who thinks he can enlist people of colour in his fascist crusade just by decreeing it. He really is appallingly racist.

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LNA may perhaps be pointing out that global opinion was not in favor of the Iraqi people nor the Afghani people as much as it is for Ukraine.

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There was plenty of opposition to the Iraq war. I wasn’t exactly a fan of it. Even so it’s still not as bad as the invasion of Ukraine. I didn’t like the American invasion of Grenada either - which is a closer parallel, but still not quite as bad.So where’s the double standard?

But it’s not very much like what LNA is saying. There’s no attempt to justify the Russian invasion, just the point that white Ukrainian refugees are getting better treatment than - for instance - Arab refugees.Which is an entirely valid point. Unlike LNAs.(The British government is being less welcoming than most of Europe - because British racism also targets Eastern Europeans - one of the things behind Brexit).

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There was a Treaty of Tartu signed in 1920 between Finland and Russia.
There were uprisings in Karelia, which was a western region of Russia, since the 1700s. It had mostly ethnic Finns, as a population demographic.

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Finland was invading Russia, during World War 1, expecting a victorious Germany to help them take Karelia

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Finland was supporting locals attempting to break away from the Bolshevist regime - helping an oppressed minority. Indeed, there had already been votes to secede in parts of the region.

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It did not work out and Red Russia offered the Treaty of Tartu, defining borders, and requiring Finland to agree to stop trying to take Karelia. 1920 ratification.

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But Finland pulled a stunt. In Finland, the 1921-1922 Finnish-Soviet Uprisings are called the East Karelian Uprisings.

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Finland allowed members of its military to cross the border to Russian sovereign territories in Karelia. Finland allowed anybody to cross and join rebels. Finland is recognized, by historically confirmed policy, to have sent "humanitarian aid" to help the war effort. The Finnish government.

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So Finland helped the locals rebel against an oppressive regime.In 1933-35 the Soviet oppression in East Karelia increased, with local autonomy removed, Finnish leaders purged and the teaching of the Finnish language forbidden.

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Then, in the 1930s, Nazi Germany & Russia fought - through proxies- endless civil wars, before the shocking treaty between Hitler & Stalin. But Finnish designs to invade Russia & establish a Greater Finland were alive & well, and Finns looked forward to the inevitable war between Germany and Russia. Finns were ready to use Germany to take East Karelia.

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How does this show that the Russians had any interest in helping an oppressed minority rather than the continuation of their own oppression in Karelia? And how does this even justify the Russian demands against Finland followed by an invasion? And let us not forget the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - the Soviets had their own agreements with the Nazis.

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So provide the context, PaulK.

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Glad to! As you see it further demolishes your claim. But you knew that - that’s why you aren’t even trying to support it.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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Does anybody doubt that?

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Since the only evidence of that is your say-so, then everyone with any sense will conclude that this is just another of your stupid lies.

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Honestly, AzPaul would love for the Tsars to be in power.

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Who can deny that?

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I can.It probably means that you wish the Tsars were still in power.

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Your bullshit was irrelevant.

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That’s rich from someone who attempted to claim that the Russian invasion was justified because a neo-Nazi wrestler came from Finland to the US in 1993.

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Finland outlawed democratic Communist parties in 1930. Peaceful Communists were murdered

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Missing some context there like the fact that those “democratic” communists had belonged to a party that tried to violently overthrow the Finnish government in 1919, leading to a civil war.The rest is even more unimportant - and far less relevant to the fact that it is the Soviets who were the imperialist and colonialists in this conflict.

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Your bullshit was irrelevant. Finland outlawed democratic Communist parties in 1930. Peaceful Communists were murdered

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Lots of places did. It still doesn’t support your point, nor does it change the fact that the Soviets were the imperialists and colonialists in this conflict. You are the one “gladly dismissing” the facts.

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Finland was spending the first half of the 20th century trying to figure out a way to invade Russia.

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By which you mean to liberate East Karelia from the imperialist colonialist oppressors.

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And the world OPPOSED DEMANDING Russian troops to leave Ukraine.For the sake of peace.

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“War is Peace”. Very Orwellian.

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The West never cease it war-mongering schemes.

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What schemes are those. Not appeasing Putin so that he has to fight a war for territorial expansion?

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Russia is fighting for peace.

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By which you mean “surrender to the imperialists or they’ll declare war and it’s all your fault.” You probably love the use of cluster bombs against civilians,

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Facsists like you speak with a forked tongue. I can decipher the language, however.

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I’m not the fascist here. And you certainly speak with a forked tongue. Indeed “decipher the language” us code for “tell vicious lies” as you have been caught doing on multiple occasions.Go take you your white imperialist colonialist lies to somewhere they’ll be more appreciated.

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Russia found itself in posession of East Karelia around 1700.

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The situation had more to do with the Swedes and Finns fighting, than anything else.

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More to do with the Swedes and Russians fighting over Finland. Finland was not an independent state at that time. And indeed, Finland was subject to the Russian Empire after that.

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The Greater Finland concept was a relatively new Finnish nationalism concept, in the period around World War 1.

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Because boundaries established by imperialists are sacred? Really?

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There were Red Finns who opposed nationalists.

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Those would be the violent revolutionaries who fled to Russia after they lost the civil war they started.

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You are arguing for a nationalism that overturned 200 years of stable borders.

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Stable borders? With Finland changing hands between Russia and Sweden ? With the border changes in 1917?(ABE) And if you’re talking about the Continuation War that was about recovering land taken by Russia in the Winter War.

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You are arguing for a fascist-alligned invasion of a sovereign nation (Russia), which was generous to Finland.

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No, you’re the one arguing FOR invasion, remember ? You’re supposed to be showing that the Soviet invasion of Finland in the Winter War was about “support for oppressed people who suffered colonialism and discrimination”. So far the only “oppressed people who suffered colonialism and discrimination” we’ve discussed have been the people of East Karelia under the Soviets.

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You are an outright Fascist

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Then why are you the one defending imperialism and colonialism?Oh right it’s because “fascists speak with forked tongues”. You do that a lot.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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You cant stop lying, can you?

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By which you mean I keep telling truths you want suppressed.

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I said Russia has border concerns, due to suffering 2 catastrophic invasions from the west, in the 20th century.

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Which really doesn’t justify invading their peaceful southern neighbour.

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I said Russia had a major problem with nationalists and fascists, trying to invade them

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Right now Ukraine has exactly that problem. But curiously you’re fine with that.

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I drew a very clear distinction between Russia's border problems and the support for oppressed people around the globe

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You really didn’t. But then imperialist expansion and oppressing people isn’t really justified by “border problems”, is it?

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It is true, however, that even the border situation defense often results in better lives for the border nations involved.

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Invasions are offence, not defence.

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I can never keep up with your disingenuous & endless misrepresentations. You twist everything, and onlookers will be confused, for sure.

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Says the guy who tries to pass invasions off as “border defence”.

I’m for unilateral Russian withdrawal. I oppose wars of imperialist aggression. Unlike you.

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PaulK claimed to be a champion of human rights, while making statements, about World War 2 combatants, that would make anybody (slightly) to the left of Aryan Nations blush.

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Now that’s an outright lie. Plenty of people on the Left are prepared to criticise Soviet imperialism. There was zero support for the Nazis in any of my posts. All I did was point out that the Soviet actions in Finland had nothing to do with protecting oppressed minorities - indeed the Soviets were oppressing minorities.But then you love to call people Nazis. Because it “justifies” killing them.

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I actually had to pinch myself, reading PaulK's World War 2 views. If our debate was in person, I would study his face to try to figure out if he was joking

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Yes, you have great difficulty believing that anybody could stand against your vicious lies. And no doubt you’d like to add physical violence to the mix.

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You guys actually claim to represent the general non-white world views, to some significant extent?

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I claim that you don’t. Lying racists don’t get to dictate what people of colour believe.

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I actually had to pinch myself, reading PaulK's World War 2 views. If our debate was in person, I would study his face to try to figure out if he was joking.

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Oh, and because it bears repeating, you tried to claim that the 1939 Soviet invasion of Finland was justified because a neo-Nazi wrestler came from Finland to the US in 1993. To any sane person THAT would be a joke of an argument.

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Im curious where you were born, L.N.A. You seem particularly sensitive to emerging and minority cultures (which is good) and also seem prejudiced against the beneficiaries of white privilege (which stirs a lot of stuff up).

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That’s really not what he’s discussing here. Here, he seems to be taking a hardline Tankie view. (And that article is too kind to Tankies - as LNA demonstrates).