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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Omnivorous
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Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 766 of 818 (894096)
04-30-2022 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by Phat
04-30-2022 4:02 PM


Re: Nuclear Winter and Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere
I see.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Phat, posted 04-30-2022 4:02 PM Phat has taken no action

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 767 of 818 (894097)
04-30-2022 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Phat
04-30-2022 2:23 PM


Re: Nuclear Winter and Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere
Even if it's only 10%, that's 400 Nukes.

I bet that would be pretty frustrating repeatedly pushing the launch buttons and having nothing happen, or even worse, the warhead explodes on the launcher.

I am soberly realistic regarding the future of humanity.

Really? I have never noticed that.

And I am not as blindly idealistic as are some of you.

Can you point to some examples?

It is far from only being the fault of the Republicans, for example.

I haven't seen anyone claim that, but I also have not seen anyone claiming the republicans are just too darn good, either.

Humanity itself is fully culpable.

Bullshit! I'm sure not culpable for a single thing the republicans have done, for example.

Of course, men like Putin do represent evil incarnate. They care little for anything or anyone outside their own narrow and warped view of future existence.

Yeah, we have a Congress full of our own home grown Putin clones waiting in line behind President Turd.

ABE: I just realized that you forgot to even mention anything about "Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere", so enlighten us.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Phat, posted 04-30-2022 2:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by Phat, posted 05-01-2022 3:22 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 768 of 818 (894103)
05-01-2022 9:45 AM


10th Russian general killed. It's some kind of record.

quote:
Major General Andrei Simonov reportedly died after his command post came under artillery fire by Ukrainian forces on Saturday April 30. The bombardment also took out more than 30 Russian armoured vehicles, including tanks. Videos circulating on social media appeared to show the command post being hit by Grad rockets, fired from a multiple-launch rocket system.

Disaster for Putin as TENTH Russian General 'killed' - Kremlin losing 'one a week'


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 769 of 818 (894104)
05-01-2022 11:55 AM


Looks like they very nearly got the commander too

VLADIMIR Putin's top military commander has been wounded in Ukraine and was sent back to Russia just days after he arrived to take charge of the war.

The Chief of the Russian General Staff Valery Gerasimov had been sent by Putin to take personal control of his push to grab territory in Donbas and eastern Ukraine.

Vlad's military chief wounded in Ukraine & scurries home days after arriving

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 770 of 818 (894105)
05-01-2022 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 764 by Phat
04-30-2022 4:02 PM


Re: Nuclear Winter and Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere
Phat writes:

I meant its not as simple as the "good party" and the "bad party".


In your case it's more like the Silly Party and the Monster Raving Looney Party.

Phat writes:

Part of the sin is the pride of getting ourselves out of it rather than asking for help.


What about the sin of pride in thinking that you have your own private Sky-Buddy who will help you and nobody else? I'm particularly eager to see how He saves you from climate change and lets the rest of us fry.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 764 by Phat, posted 04-30-2022 4:02 PM Phat has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 771 of 818 (894106)
05-01-2022 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 767 by Tanypteryx
04-30-2022 4:17 PM


Re: Nuclear Winter and Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere
[qs=Tanypteryx]Can you point to some examples?(of naive idealism)

Yes. In general, the liberally progressive globalists want more people to have money--at the expense of the ultra rich. Though this is nobel in and of itself, it necessitates government control and dispersal of the money. IT BECOMES MANDATORY. This threatens freedom and private property rights.

Mandatory taxation to fund mammoth projects that are marketed as helping the masses when they will end up raising taxes and forcing everyone to pay for them.

It seems that Democrats want fiat money at unlimited amounts as needed.
It also seems as if they want all money openly public and not hidden or private.

The debts dont matter if everyone is responsible.

I just realized that you forgot to even mention anything about "Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere", so enlighten us.

All im saying is that they seem to think a limited nuclear exchange is possible. It will ruin everything.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 767 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-30-2022 4:17 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by ringo, posted 05-01-2022 3:40 PM Phat has replied
 Message 774 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-01-2022 5:51 PM Phat has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 772 of 818 (894107)
05-01-2022 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by Phat
05-01-2022 3:22 PM


Re: Nuclear Winter and Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere
Phat writes:

... the liberally progressive globalists want more people to have money....


You forget AGAIN that more people having more money means they are also paying more taxes - which means LESS taxes for you.

Phat writes:

All im saying is that they seem to think a limited nuclear exchange is possible. It will ruin everything.


There was a limited nuclear exchange at the end of WW2. It didn't ruin everything.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Phat, posted 05-01-2022 3:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 773 by Phat, posted 05-01-2022 3:53 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15948
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 773 of 818 (894108)
05-01-2022 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by ringo
05-01-2022 3:40 PM


Re: Nuclear Winter and Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere
here was a limited nuclear exchange at the end of WW2. It didn't ruin everything.
Dont be naive. First, it was no exchange. two bombs came from one side. Second, todays nukes are 10-100x more powerful.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by ringo, posted 05-01-2022 3:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 781 by ringo, posted 05-02-2022 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 774 of 818 (894109)
05-01-2022 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by Phat
05-01-2022 3:22 PM


Re: Nuclear Winter and Sobering realities of the fragility of the Biosphere
phat writes:

Yes. In general, the liberally progressive globalists want more people to have money--at the expense of the ultra rich.

You could have used a few more derogatory names in there to get your point across, like bleeding heart liberally progressive socialist globalists.

You seem to think it is a much better and more functional system to tax everyone except the rich, to build the infrastructure for the rich to monopolize and control, and that the government should directly and indirectly pay tax money to the ultra rich. You think that the rich should never fucking ever pay for the benefits they get for free and that we have to pay for with our taxes.

phat writes:

it necessitates government control and dispersal of the money. IT BECOMES MANDATORY.

Historically and presently, who do you think controls the tax money? Taxes are already mandatory for everyone, except the wealthy.

Just what do you think is so horrible about making them pay their share and lowering everyone elses's taxes?

phat writes:

This threatens freedom and private property rights.

Really? How does passing laws that force rich people to pay for the benefits they receive just like the rest of us, threaten freedom or property rights?

You think it is a better and more functional system to let the rich get away with rigging the system by passing tax cuts for themselves so they continue to get all the benefits, and making the rest of us pay for it and give them free huge fucking bonuses on top of it.

phat writes:

Mandatory taxation to fund mammoth projects that are marketed as helping the masses when they will end up raising taxes and forcing everyone to pay for them.

Hmmmm, well it's better than cutting taxes on the wealthy that are marketed as helping the masses when they will end up raising taxes and forcing everyone to pay for them.

phat writes:

It seems that Democrats want fiat money at unlimited amounts as needed.

You know it's all just money, using your scary word "fiat" for emphasis is as stupid as using socialist.

phat writes:

It also seems as if they want all money openly public and not hidden or private.

Are you talking about political campaign contributions? I guess you approve of Putin and the Chinese and all the other foreign assholes contributing and buying our elected representatives in government?

phat writes:

All im saying is that they seem to think a limited nuclear exchange is possible. It will ruin everything.

Then why didn't you just say that, instead of trying to make it sound like you give a shit about the biosphere.


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Phat, posted 05-01-2022 3:22 PM Phat has seen this message

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 775 of 818 (894110)
05-01-2022 8:00 PM


Limited Nukes?
What is a limited nuclear exchange in this situation?

I can see one if this scenario is allowed to start with the sub-kiloton tactical nukes.

Putin pops a small nuke to stop the Ukrainian army in a small town. 800 dead in the blast with another 1200 to follow within hours from the radiation. Air burst. Minor dusting of fallout.

Though the ground advantage was achieved the nuke was used more for the shock value in the west.

What happens next?

Does NATO stand jaw agape in abject horror with strong letters of official condemnation sent to Moscow, or, something more substantial?


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
 Message 776 by jar, posted 05-01-2022 8:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(4)
Message 776 of 818 (894111)
05-01-2022 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 775 by AZPaul3
05-01-2022 8:00 PM


Re: Limited Nukes?
Fortunately there are conventional munitions these days that rival nukes and hopefully any response would be non-nuclear but massive and significant.

My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2022 8:00 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2022 8:21 PM jar has replied

  
Percy
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Posts: 20761
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 777 of 818 (894112)
05-02-2022 7:40 AM


Jes' Sayin'
Recent discussion reminds me of this quote:

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
    Incorrectly attributed to Mark Twain

There's another quote that doesn't apply as well here, and the attribution is even more unclear:

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
    Many different forms, variously attributed to Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw and Abraham Lincoln

But it does have the same problem that after a while you can't tell which is which.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by Omnivorous, posted 05-02-2022 8:01 AM Percy has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20761
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 778 of 818 (894113)
05-02-2022 7:54 AM


On Appeasement
It was nice to see some clear statements on appeasement after Russia's recent nuclear saber rattliing. This is from Putin is inching towards his nukes, threatening to annihilate the world if he fails to capture Ukraine, says foreign affairs expert:

quote:
Russia’s Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov, said that the risk of a global nuclear war is very real. This ominous warning came not from some deranged psychopath – like the ones who regularly demand Kyiv to be nuked on Russian state TV. These were the words of the top diplomat of the Russian Federation.
...
Giving in to the terrorist’s demands is out of the question, it would only embolden him to make further demands, and inspire copycats. Sooner or later, the world will have to call his bluff at one red line or another, risking a global nuclear war. The only difference is that the longer we appease the terrorist, the more powerful he becomes, and the weaker and more demoralized the rest of the world will be. Appeasement is not an option.

That declarations that we can't arm Ukraine in earnest "because, you know, nukes" have been diminishing has been welcome, and it's good to see the media more vigorously taking up what's been obvious about appeasement for a couple months now.

I don't agree with the articles optimism about the eventual outcome in Ukraine.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2022 10:45 AM Percy has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 779 of 818 (894114)
05-02-2022 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 777 by Percy
05-02-2022 7:40 AM


Re: Jes' Sayin'
You put me in mind of my favorite misattributed quote, often ascribed to Shakespeare or the Bible.

quote:
On the origin of the quote "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt," which has been wrongly attributed to both Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain

The earliest evidence that I was able to find was a 1907 book by Maurice Switzer. And it seems to contain a lot of original material and it includes the statement "It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it." So it's slightly different phrasing, but I believe that is what evolved to generate the modern common version.


--from Garson O"Toole's book, "Hemingway Didn't Say That"


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 777 by Percy, posted 05-02-2022 7:40 AM Percy has taken no action

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 780 of 818 (894116)
05-02-2022 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 778 by Percy
05-02-2022 7:54 AM


Re: On Appeasement
Opinion | Putin Really May Break the Nuclear Taboo in Ukraine

This is from Peggy Noonan

Another perspective on nuclear Putin.

quote:
People who have known Mr. Putin have told me I am wrong in my concern about his potential nuclear use in that he knows if he makes one move with such a weapon, Moscow will in turn be reduced to a smoking ruin. But I am reading Mr. Putin as someone who’s grown bored of that threat, who believes he can more than match it, who maybe doesn’t even believe it anymore.

In this view Putin is prepared to go nuclear since he has no military left to fight and his ego will not allow him to lose.


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Percy, posted 05-02-2022 7:54 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by Percy, posted 05-02-2022 12:03 PM AZPaul3 has taken no action

  
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