The War in Europe

Both international history and high school experience show the only thing to do with a violent bully is to punch him in the nose, hard.The Ukraine situation is NOT some Russian civil war. Ukraine is an independent state so guaranteed in international law as accepted by the world community in 1991.Phat, have you become a Russian Lie-bot? Stop with this bogus civil war crap.

It's not a civil war dipshit. Ukraine has been a sovereign nation since the fall of the USSR. The simple solution to end the killing is for russia to fuck off back to it's own borders.edit: I used to think you were smarter than Buzsaw/Faith/ICant but I see that I was wrong and you're just another sister-fucking-hillbilly.

You are an idiot.

Please, for your own sake, stop posting.--Percy

There are times where I wonder how anyone could fall for Russian propaganda, and then Phat proves me wrong.Just to help drive this into Phat's brain, Ukraine has been its own country for 33 years now. This isn't a civil war. This is an invasion of a sovereign nation by a foreign power.

Do we want Ukraine to win this war against Russia and to remain an independent country and a bulwark against Russian threats against eastern Europe? It sure doesn't seem like it. This, from Putin scrambles as Ukraine claims more territory inside Russia, says that we still restrict Ukraine from using US weapons for long-range strikes against Russia:

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Between the lines: For much of the war, the U.S. and other Western allies barred Ukraine from using the weapons they provided to carry out offensive strikes inside Russia, for fear of escalation.

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• In May, the U.S. and other Western allies reversed course, though the U.S. kept a restriction on long-range strikes in place. Previous Ukrainian strikes inside Russia had been carried out using Ukrainian-made weapons.

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We've required the far weaker country to fight with one hand tied behind its back, and we're still doing it. How do we expect Ukraine to win this war?--Percy

I think there can be little doubt that Russia has committed many attrocities during its invasion of Ukraine. Most of the ones we hear about involve attacks against civilians, resulting in many civilian deaths.Now that Ukraine has invaded Russia, small as the incursion is I think it as important that we strenuously oppose war crimes committed by Ukraine as much as by Russia. Ukraine must treat the Russian civilians under its control humanely, and there must be no attacks against civilian targets.I'm defining "civilian targets" very strictly. For example, a school is still a civilian target no matter how many Russian tanks and soldiers occupy it. A position of Russian soldiers holding civilians hostage as human shields is still a civilian target. It's wrong when Israel attacks such targets, and it would be just as wrong for Ukraine to attack such targets.I'm sure some will think I'm being naive or that this yields too much power to the Russians, but perhaps you'll agree with me simply because of the propaganda value to Russia of Ukrainian atrocities.Of course, whether Ukraine commits atrocities or not, Russia will still claim they did. We can only hope the news media brings the truth to light.If Ukraine does commit war crimes I would probably find myself in a bit of a dilemma. I support Ukraine because I believe in the sovereignty of independent states, that Russia's war against Ukraine has no justification whatsoever beyond Russia's illegitimate desire for land, influence and power, and that Ukraine is an essential buffer between Russia and Eastern Europe and ultimately for all of Europe and that losing Ukraine to Russia would be a serious blow to western security.Could I still support Ukraine if they began committing war crimes on a scale beyond isolated incidents? I don't think I'd have any choice but to continue my support for Ukraine, but I wouldn't be happy about it.--Percy

From Ukraine targets Moscow in biggest drone attack yet:

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Ukraine says it has a right to strike back deep into Russia, though Kyiv's Western backers have said they do not want a direct confrontation between Russia and the U.S.-led NATO military alliance.

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If the west does not provide Ukraine sufficient resources to expel the Russian invaders then Ukraine will, eventually, fall. Enforcing constraints on Ukraine, like not supporting Ukraine's ability to counterattack Russia, are Chamberlainesque recipe's for failure. I've probably said this several times already, but if Ukraine doesn't succeed (Moldova would fall with it) then Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania would find themselves on Russia's border. Hungary, an actual NATO country, is already halfway in Moscow's hands, and if Ukraine were to fall then Hungary would become just another Belarus-style Russian puppet state, with Romania, Slovakia and Poland tottering over soon after, and then Russian puppet states would be bordering Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Austria, Chechia, Germany, and the Baltic states.In other ways, the foundation of European security lies in a free and robust Ukraine. We have to make a stand there. Making a stand later will be much more difficult. And for those keeping track of such things, also much more expensive.--Percy

I just saw this on the BBC. It is also in most major news outlets:
Zelensky says war will 'end sooner' with Trump as president Everyone except Putin is sick and tired of so many soldiers and civilians dying. If Boris Johnson had never opened his mouth, peace could have happened many many deaths ago. This obsession with "protecting Ukraine's right to join NATO" is a stumbling block and (was) a major mistake. Make peace already. Let Ukraine have its own destiny.

Zelensky knows trump is weak and easily flattered, he's trying to make his position now before Putin whispers sweet nothings into trump's ear. NATO membership is going to be the only thing stopping Russia from invading again in 5-10 years when they've rebuilt their military. Peace is easy, Russia fucks off out ukraine, Ukraine joins NATO, russia fucks off forever. Yes lets do that instead of imposing a "peace" on them that does nothing to ensure their future security and rewards russia for killing ukrainian civilians.

The whole idea is the necessity of a coalition. We are spending 90% of the money to help Europe defend Ukraine (and itself, allegedly). Why must we pay so much? Putin is no Hitler.Even if he were, the US should not pay so much money to do the job that other countries should be doing for themselves. We should pay the same percentage as any other NATO member.

And the differences are ... Phatman, please think. Our enormous “contributions” to NATO in the form of $$$, equipment, technology, are our keys to control of the military situation in all of Europe. Despite any politics, control of the air/ground/sea military resources of NATO is a major advantage for the USofA in the whole world. When all the weapons are American and the Command & Control systems are under our direct control then, when the shit flies, we rule. We built NATO to serve us. You really want to give that up?

citation needed. Maybe we should stop him before he gets to that point and there's Phat's good old christian "Fuck you I got mine". You're the type of coward who when there was a schoolyard fight would cheer on the bully, aren't you.

It's a drop in the bucket compared to the overall annual military budget.

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The United States led the ranking of the countries with the highest military spending in 2023, with 916 billion U.S. dollars dedicated to the military. That constituted over 40 percent of the total military spending worldwide that year, which amounted to 2.4 trillion U.S. dollars.
Military spending by country worldwide 2023 | Statista

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Also, a lot of the equipment we have sent to Ukraine is old stuff we were going to decommission soon anyway.You also have to weigh the cost of aid to Ukraine with the cost of going to war with Russia if they decide to invade a NATO country like Poland. Ever heard of Sudetenland? How did that work out? Hitler decided he wanted part of a neighboring country's land, so he took it. The West said they wouldn't fight it if Hitler promised to stop there. He didn't stop there, and was only emboldened by the apathy of other European countries.This is the second time Putin has used military force to take away a part of Ukraine. Do you really think he can be trusted?

Nope. Im the type of guy who encourages the smaller kids to join together to take on the bully rather than beating him up myself when I don't have the strength. Europe is well able to take care of itself. The *only reason* that the progressives favor what we do in Ukraine is because it supposedly helps the stock market and fosters relations with Social Democratic Europe. Trump will likely attempt to stop the war by ignoring Europe and doing business with BRICS. The effect of that (they hope) will be to slow the demise of the US Dollar. In my opinion, it's already too late. I give it ten years at the most. Now check this out: Putin warns West as Russia hits Ukraine with new missile

BBC:

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Last Sunday US President Joe Biden gave Ukraine the go-ahead to use long-range Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) to strike inside Russia, and two days later they were launched into Russia's Bryansk region.

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On Wednesday, Ukraine was reported to have used UK-supplied Storm Shadow missiles against Russian targets. On the same day, Biden also agreed to give Ukraine anti-personnel landmines.

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The Western moves were apparently in response to Moscow's deployment of North Korean troops as it prepares for an offensive aimed at driving Ukrainian troops out of a small area they have occupied in Russia's Kursk region.(...)Trump has promised to end the US involvement in wars and instead use taxpayers' money to improve Americans' lives.

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Sounds like another tax break instead of the military-industrial complex pumping up the stock market!
Many analysts fear a market meltdown as the dollar devalues and the US runs out of money (without more "quantitative easing"! ) Again, it won't be Trump's fault—the crash up, I mean. It's a bipartisan responsibility.