Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 47 (9216 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: KING IYK
Post Volume: Total: 920,539 Year: 861/6,935 Month: 142/719 Week: 134/116 Day: 8/40 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The War in Europe
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8706
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 1246 of 1258 (921022)
12-19-2024 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1243 by Phat
12-19-2024 3:50 AM


Re: Sanctions, Global Finance, and BRICS
If there were a possibility that(a) God's character was Jesus Christ and there was an invitation from such a Being, how would you react?
Come on in, have a seat. Take your shoes off. Wine or something?
Let's talk ... no, not talk. You sit and listen to me rant, you bloody stinkin' evil scumbag!
I'm glad you didn't invite me. I'm in no mood to be civil.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1243 by Phat, posted 12-19-2024 3:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 6183
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 1247 of 1258 (921023)
12-19-2024 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1243 by Phat
12-19-2024 3:50 AM


Re: Sanctions, Global Finance, and BRICS
If there were a possibility that(a) God's character was Jesus Christ and there was an invitation from such a Being, how would you react?
So show me already. Include evidence that it wasn't due to my having eaten a bad burrito!
Here's a call-in to Atheist Community of Austin (ACA) from a theist who says that they almost deconverted him until the Holy Ghost spoke to him:
YOUTUBE (would not embed) -- "The ACA ALMOST Deconverted Me!", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvzBFlt0JJw
When asked about that experience, he was very vague and became increasingly evasive; not even Archimedes could pry it out of him. Then a panel member describes how the Bible describes the experience of being visited by the Holy Ghost (extremely difficult to not notice it when it happens) and it was nothing like what the caller described (kind of a vague feeling, more of a conclusion after the fact than an experience).
Also consider the experiences with a demon that both my high school friend's mother and my ex-wife's brother, both fundamentalist Christians with Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa (the "mothership" of that franchise), had. They had been napping when they "woke up" "experiencing" a demon holding them down keeping them paralyzed and unable to speak despite their desperate attempts to scream for help. Instead, that was simply a case of Sleep paralysis, a common state of shallow sleep in which we are highly suggestible as well as being paralyzed to keep us from acting out our dream:
quote:
Sleep paralysis is a state, during waking up or falling asleep, in which a person is conscious but in a complete state of full-body paralysis. During an episode, the person may hallucinate (hear, feel, or see things that are not there), which often results in fear. Episodes generally last no more than a few minutes. It can recur multiple times or occur as a single episode.
The condition may occur in those who are otherwise healthy or those with narcolepsy, or it may run in families as a result of specific genetic changes. The condition can be triggered by sleep deprivation, psychological stress, or abnormal sleep cycles. The underlying mechanism is believed to involve a dysfunction in REM sleep. Diagnosis is based on a person's description. Other conditions that can present similarly include narcolepsy, atonic seizure, and hypokalemic periodic paralysis. Treatment options for sleep paralysis have been poorly studied. It is recommended that people be reassured that the condition is common and generally not serious. Other efforts that may be tried include sleep hygiene, cognitive behavioral therapy, and antidepressants.
Between 8% and 50% of people experience sleep paralysis at some point during their lives. About 5% of people have regular episodes. Males and females are affected equally. Sleep paralysis has been described throughout history. It is believed to have played a role in the creation of stories about alien abduction and other paranormal events.
When we observe that in sleeping dogs, we ascribe it to dreaming about chasing rabbits instead of them having a personal experience with DOG.
So how do we ensure that we are not just dreaming it? Especially if we are also under the influence of a bad burrito.
 
Also, I was talking about evidence and about how you construct surrogates (made-up substitutes for the Real Thing, which you assume exists whether it actually does or not -- old popular truism: "When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.") And all you can come up with is a stupid ghost story? So what would you do if Lord Krishna were to appear to you? Or the Buddha were to appear to you in order to warn you away from believing in the gods since that will only keep you from gaining Enlightenment?
So instead of addressing the ideas presented, you post really stupid nonsense that avoid the subject. And then you have the gall to wonder why nobody can ever take anything you say seriously? Really?
There are so many things that might be possible, which is why we need some kind of evidence so that we can hold onto the more evidenced things and no longer have to bother ourselves with the unevidenced things.
Yet again (obviously for the others, not for you since everything just flies high over your head) here's that Carl Sagan story yet again:
quote:
The Physicist and the Metaphysicist
In the 1920s, there was a dinner at which the physicist Robert W. Wood was asked to respond to a toast. This was a time when people stood up, made a toast, and then selected someone to respond. Nobody knew what toast they'd be asked to reply to, so it was a challenge for the quick-witted. In this case the toast was:
"To physics and metaphysics." Now by metaphysics was meant something like philosophy -- truths that you could get to just by thinking about them. Wood took a second, glanced about him, and answered along these lines: The physicist has an idea, he said. The more he thinks it through, the more sense it makes to him. He goes to the scientific literature, and the more he reads, the more promising the idea seems. Thus prepared, he devises an experiment to test the idea. The experiment is painstaking. Many possibilities are eliminated or taken into account; the accuracy of the measurement is refined. At the end of all this work, the experiment is completed and ... the idea is shown to be worthless. The physicist then discards the idea, frees his mind (as I was saying a moment ago) from the clutter of error, and moves on to something else.
The difference between physics and metaphysics, Wood concluded, is that the metaphysicist has no laboratory.
(reportedly from an essay by Carl Sagan, http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/saganws.htm)
And if you think that you do have evidence for "God", then compare it with what callers to an atheist show present (and fail miserably):
The founder of a local skeptics group has a personal policy for his own ideas: he actively seeks out people who can disprove them. Like in Sagan's story and in the practice of science, when you come up with an idea you then need to disprove it. That's what all the testing in science is about. Instead of trying to prove your ideas, you see whether it can survive repeated testing. Science works by eliminating the ideas that don't work. Here's the accepted definition for a scientific theory:
quote:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspects of the natural world based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.
Or more expansively:
quote:
Theory might win the prize for the most commonly misunderstood word in science. In everyday usage, a theory is a hunch. A guess. Speculation. For example, I have a theory about why my cat yells (sings?) at night — he’s calling on the spirits of his ancestors to free him from the captivity of his luxurious life.
But in science speak, a theory is almost the complete opposite — it’s a broad explanation for a wide range of phenomena that’s supported by a vast amount of evidence. As science progresses and evidence accumulates, related ideas are combined into a clear and powerful explanation.
Theories form the basis of our scientific knowledge and are used by scientists to make predictions for further testing, and as such are continually subjected to scrutiny.
Examples include gravitational theory, plate tectonic theory, evolutionary theory, cell theory, germ theory, foraging theory, the sliding filament theory of muscular contraction, atomic theory…
The bottom line is that the ultimate goal of science is to understand and explain the natural world, and theories are about as close to the “truth” as we may ever get.
So don’t be fooled when someone doubts science because “it’s just a theory.”
In sharp contrast is how apologists go about their business. They "already have the truth" so instead of trying to learn anything new, they work unflaggingly to reject or corrupt any evidence that would disprove their "truth", even going so far as to fabricate false "evidences" in their ongoing campaign to deceive everyone, most importantly themselves.
We observe you following the path of apologists. Not a good look.
 
Now to wait and see how much you ignore this time and what you choose to completely misconstrue.
 

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1243 by Phat, posted 12-19-2024 3:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by Phat, posted 12-20-2024 3:32 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 1248 of 1258 (921026)
12-20-2024 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1247 by dwise1
12-19-2024 1:27 PM


Re: Sanctions, Global Finance, and BRICS
dwise1 writes:
In sharp contrast is how apologists go about their business. They "already have the truth" so instead of trying to learn anything new, they work unflaggingly to reject or corrupt any evidence that would disprove their "truth", even going so far as to fabricate false "evidences" in their ongoing campaign to deceive everyone, most importantly themselves.

We observe you following the path of apologists. Not a good look.

Now to wait and see how much you ignore this time and what you choose to completely misconstrue.
I read everything that you posted. Im not consciously trying to ignore your arguments. They are well founded. My only question to you is what you would try to ignore and what you would question if you someday came across something that stood out from your other research. Do you have all of your conclusions and judgements based upon successful falsification? If so, it will take a lot to get you to question the foregone science.

When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2024 1:27 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1249 of 1258 (921027)
12-20-2024 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1245 by Taq
12-19-2024 10:51 AM


Re: Sanctions, Global Finance, and BRICS
The question is not designed to be a relativistic question. The answer is not multiple choice. That is the mistake so many make.

When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1245 by Taq, posted 12-19-2024 10:51 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1250 by Taq, posted 12-20-2024 10:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10384
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 1250 of 1258 (921031)
12-20-2024 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1249 by Phat
12-20-2024 6:41 AM


Re: Sanctions, Global Finance, and BRICS
Phat writes:
The question is not designed to be a relativistic question. The answer is not multiple choice. That is the mistake so many make.
It would have been a lot easier to agree that your views on religion are biased towards your own vies and hypocritical when it comes to other religions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1249 by Phat, posted 12-20-2024 6:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1251 by Phat, posted 12-20-2024 2:34 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1251 of 1258 (921034)
12-20-2024 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1250 by Taq
12-20-2024 10:41 AM


Re: Sanctions, Global Finance, and BRICS
It would have been a lot easier to agree that your views on religion are biased towards your own views and hypocritical when it comes to other religions.
I agree. That's the line in the sand in today's world. From my perspective, anyway. What do you see as the sticking point from your perspective?

When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1250 by Taq, posted 12-20-2024 10:41 AM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1252 by Percy, posted 12-20-2024 5:42 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23128
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1252 of 1258 (921035)
12-20-2024 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1251 by Phat
12-20-2024 2:34 PM


Re: Sanctions, Global Finance, and BRICS
Phat writes in Message 1251:
It would have been a lot easier to agree that your views on religion are biased towards your own views and hypocritical when it comes to other religions.
I agree. That's the line in the sand in today's world. From my perspective, anyway. What do you see as the sticking point from your perspective?
Uh, aren't you guys now in agreement on this? Taq in effect said the sticking point was your hypocrisy, and you agreed that this was the sticking point. Moving forward only requires that you cease your hypocrisy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1251 by Phat, posted 12-20-2024 2:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3987
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 1253 of 1258 (921036)
12-20-2024 7:43 PM


Hey, what's the topic theme?
Topic? Topic? Has anyone detected anything related to topic recently?
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that©.

Replies to this message:
 Message 1254 by Phat, posted 12-21-2024 4:25 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1254 of 1258 (921037)
12-21-2024 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by Adminnemooseus
12-20-2024 7:43 PM


Re: Hey, what's the topic theme?
OK, Moose, I will return to the topic. The topic is the war in Europe, specifically Ukraine.
Religious hypocrisy, Geopolitical disagreements on funding, purpose, and solutions will take a back seat.
Lets see what the media says:
Five killed in strike on Russia's Kursk after deadly missile attack on Kyiv
quote:
Ukraine's military said Russia had launched 65 drones and missiles across the country overnight, with most shot down.
And...
Don't underestimate North Korean troops in Russia, ex-soldiers tell BBC The takeaway that I saw in this article was the stark malnourished condition of so many soldiers in these wars in the modern world. I see the makings of a global revolution. Many soldiers from North Korea will be exposed to the life outside of North Korea and it will affect them. From what I understand, South Korea is also undergoing a bit of a revolution lately.
Protesters jubilant as South Korea President Yoon's impeached
The world is more connected yet more fragmented than ever before.

When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-20-2024 7:43 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1255 by Percy, posted 12-21-2024 8:21 AM Phat has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23128
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 1255 of 1258 (921038)
12-21-2024 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1254 by Phat
12-21-2024 4:25 AM


Re: Hey, what's the topic theme?
Phat writes in Message 1254:
OK, Moose, I will return to the topic.
You're drawing multiple threads off topic. In the Stogumber thread about democracies sliding into authoritarianism you're also posting about religion. You opened the What Is An Elitist? thread to take shots at your fellow members, then added defending conservative conspiracy theory spinning.
The topic is the war in Europe, specifically Ukraine.
Religious hypocrisy, Geopolitical disagreements on funding, purpose, and solutions will take a back seat.
Everything after "religious hypocrisy" is on-topic, and even that is on-topic in the way it was recently framed in another thread, as an effective motivator for war. For example, half of America thinks we're a Christian nation, and for many of them that makes any war America engages in a holy war sanctioned by God to defend Christianity. In an analogous way there is a religious element to the war in Ukraine.
And...
Don't underestimate North Korean troops in Russia, ex-soldiers tell BBC The takeaway that I saw in this article was the stark malnourished condition of so many soldiers in these wars in the modern world. I see the makings of a global revolution. Many soldiers from North Korea will be exposed to the life outside of North Korea and it will affect them. From what I understand, South Korea is also undergoing a bit of a revolution lately.
Protesters jubilant as South Korea President Yoon's impeached
The world is more connected yet more fragmented than ever before.
Even in a post responding to a request to stay on topic you can't stay on topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1254 by Phat, posted 12-21-2024 4:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1256 by Phat, posted 12-21-2024 3:29 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1256 of 1258 (921042)
12-21-2024 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1255 by Percy
12-21-2024 8:21 AM


Religion and the War In Ukraine
Percy writes:
For example, half of America thinks we're a Christian nation, and for many of them that makes any war America engages in a holy war sanctioned by God to defend Christianity. In an analogous way there is a religious element to the war in Ukraine.
I read your link and I agree that there is a definite religious element to war in general. Democracy and Christianity go hand in hand, after all. If Democracy became anything other than Christian, it would have become the enemy after all. [/tongue-in-cheek]

When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1255 by Percy, posted 12-21-2024 8:21 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by Percy, posted 12-21-2024 4:08 PM Phat has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 23128
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 1257 of 1258 (921044)
12-21-2024 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by Phat
12-21-2024 3:29 PM


Re: Religion and the War In Ukraine
Phat writes:
Democracy and Christianity go hand in hand, after all.
No, they don't. I can't imagine why you said this.
But the main point was not to discuss religion and systems of government but to note your strong tendency to take threads off-topic. Something on-topic might be to what degree Trump will continue to support Ukraine in its efforts to resist the Russian invasion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1256 by Phat, posted 12-21-2024 3:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1258 by Phat, posted 01-03-2025 2:21 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18706
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1258 of 1258 (921185)
01-03-2025 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Percy
12-21-2024 4:08 PM


Latest News
Russia-Ukraine war: List of key events, day 1,043
AlJazeera writes:

  • Russia launched an early morning New Year’s Day drone strike on the Ukrainian capital Kyiv that killed two people, wounded at least six others and damaged buildings in two districts. Two floors of a residential building in central Kyiv were partially destroyed in the strike, according to the State Emergency Service.
  • Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that as the New Year started, all Moscow could think about was hurting Ukraine: “Even on New Year’s Eve, Russia was only concerned about how to hurt Ukraine.”
  • The Ukrainian military said it shot down 63 out of 111 drones launched by Russia overnight on Wednesday, while 46 had been downed by electronic jamming.
  • Ukraine’s Commander-in-chief Oleksandr Syrskii visited Ukrainian forces in the Russian border region of Kursk and said that the Russian army had lost more than 34,000 soldiers, either dead or wounded, in their attempts to drive Ukrainian soldiers out of Russian territory.
  • Over the previous five months, approximately 700 Russian prisoners of war have been captured, which Ukraine could exchange for its own people held in Russian captivity, Syrskii said.
  • Percy writes:
    Taq in effect said the sticking point was your hypocrisy, and you agreed that this was the sticking point. Moving forward only requires that you cease your hypocrisy.
    The sticking point is my bias. I see it as a deeply held belief. I won't easily cease that!
    Percy writes:
    Something on-topic might be to what degree Trump will continue to support Ukraine in its efforts to resist the Russian invasion.
    I read where Russia has so far rejected any Trump proposals for settling the conflict.
    Why has Russia rejected Trump’s Ukraine truce plan?
    AlJazeera writes:
    Trump has been careful not to reveal much about his plan. “I can’t give you those plans because if I give you those plans, I’m not going to be able to use them. They’ll be unsuccessful. Part of it’s surprise,” Trump said in a podcast interview with Lex Fridman in September.(...)On the campaign trail, Trump made promises of ending the Ukraine war within 24 hours. However, on December 12, he told Time magazine that “the Middle East is an easier problem to handle than what’s happening with Russia and Ukraine.”
    I think that Trump has a better chance of brokering a peace favorable to both sides, though the jury is still out on that until after January 20th.

    When both religious and non-religious people reach the same conclusions then you know religion isn't the reason.--Percy
    God alone is God *but* God is not alone~Ellis Potter
    We see Monsters where Science shows us Windmills.~Phat, remixed
    Critics would of course say that "God" is a product of human imagination...but then again God may well declare that all of creation is a product of His imagination! It is all in the perspective of the observer.~Phat

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1257 by Percy, posted 12-21-2024 4:08 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2025