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Author Topic:   The origin of everything
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 793
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 31 of 61 (893293)
04-03-2022 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-02-2022 3:58 PM


Or perhaps one could just open Webster's and find the definition there?

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Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 793
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 32 of 61 (893294)
04-03-2022 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
04-02-2022 4:01 PM


Re: Irony of the year
Oh, I wouldn't say that. There are plenty of things out there that people (intellectuals or anybody else) can't explain. That's why we have scientists and explorers and such.

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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 33 of 61 (893297)
04-03-2022 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by The Real God
04-03-2022 4:35 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
You need to think more of the poetry of the universe.

Haiku.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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dwise1
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Posts: 5074
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 34 of 61 (893300)
04-03-2022 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tanypteryx
04-02-2022 4:11 PM


Re: Irony of the year
There's no need to be "careful" about leaving "god stuff" out of any explanation, since there has never been an explanation that needed "god stuff." Not once.

Why not try to evaluate the "god stuff" of an explanation for how anything in this physical universe works? For example:

  1. Perform the same experiment or procedure multiple times, half of them with and the other half without adding "god stuff."

  2. Compare the results of both batches for patterns looking for any evidence of statistically significant difference between their results:

    1. First, note that there will always be some variation in experimental results ("noise"), so we need to employ statistical analysis on multiple performances of that experiment to detect a meaningful difference ("signal"). Such a detection of "signal" would be a statistically significant difference.

      And for non-scientists and non-engineers here: a basic task in experiments and tests is to determine whether something you find is statistically significant, basically winnowing the kernels of "signal" from the mountains of chaff "noise".

    2. If there is a statistically significant difference then that would indicate that that "god stuff" had an effect.

    3. If there is no statistically significant difference then that would indicate that that "god stuff" had no effect.

  3. Conduct that experiment multiple times, preferably with multiple independent teams, for more data to feed your statistical analysis. Also branch out by applying this test to other experiments/procedures/tests.

  4. A variation would be to take an experiment that was constructed to include "god stuff" from the beginning, then remove that "god stuff" and see if that new lack of "god stuff" affects the results in any way.

In the end, I predict that you will find that including "god stuff" does nothing signficant: adding "god stuff" or omitting "god stuff" has no effect.

Mathematically, we are working with some function (f()) which does not include any "god stuff" and to which we can add some "god stuff" (g()):


y = f(x1,x2,x3, ... xn)

y1 = f(x1,x2,x3, ... xn) + g()

y1 == y

Therefore: g() == zero -- AKA NULL

Adding "god stuff" or leaving it out has no effect. Starting your car has no difference whether you say certain prayers or not, whether you are Protestant, "true Christian", Muslim, Catholic, Mormon, Hindu, Buddhist, pagan, atheist, whatever. In TOS Spock was once given the line: "A difference which makes no difference is no difference." Science and the Universe works the same and completely independent of our religious beliefs.

Though an interesting side-effect is that those who insist that "god stuff" must be added to science et al. are effectively demonstrating that "god stuff" is insignificant and basically zero, such that adding or deleting it has exactly the same effect: none whatsoever.

Thus they prove that God is meaningless. Apologist, meet petard; now hoist!

Edited by dwise1, : slight notational cleanup

Edited by dwise1, : Changed "removing 'god stuff'" to "omitting", since that's the actual issue: Do we add "God" to science et al. or continue to not include such extraneous and superfluous "factors"?


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ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 35 of 61 (893312)
04-04-2022 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
04-02-2022 3:56 PM


Re: A Few Questions
Phat writes:

Its an easy persona to sustain if you are, in fact, God.


How would you know that?

Phat writes:

It is (a) difficult if not impossible persona to duplicate or counterfeit.


On the contrary, thousands of false gods have fooled millions of people.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

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jar
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Posts: 33904
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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(2)
Message 36 of 61 (893313)
04-04-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
04-04-2022 11:43 AM


Re: A Few Questions
Gods only exist when someone believes they exist and they cease to exist when anyone does not believe they exist.

My Website: My Website

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 37 of 61 (893314)
04-04-2022 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
04-02-2022 4:01 PM


Re: Irony of the year
Phat writes:

The real irony around here will be when the group of secular humanist intellectuals are confronted with events that cannot be explained.


The secular humanist intellectuals have a far better record of explanations than the religionists.

I'll point out again that you're saying, "There are some events that cannot be explained - so here's the explanation."

You can't have it both ways. If something "cannot be explained", then your god story can't explain it either.


"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

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ringo
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Posts: 19530
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 38 of 61 (893315)
04-04-2022 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by The Real God
04-03-2022 4:35 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
The Real God writes:

You need to think more of the poetry of the universe.


There once was a God named Jehovah,
Made a universe like a Bulova.
It ran six thousand years
but it ended in tears
'Cause the whole damn thing went supernova.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

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The Real God
Junior Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 04-01-2022


Message 39 of 61 (893323)
04-05-2022 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tanypteryx
04-03-2022 12:49 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Poe-try.

TRG


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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3296
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 40 of 61 (893324)
04-05-2022 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by The Real God
04-05-2022 1:09 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
It's not natural
to think the
supernatural
is natural

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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 Message 39 by The Real God, posted 04-05-2022 1:09 AM The Real God has taken no action

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7316
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 41 of 61 (893325)
04-05-2022 8:18 AM


Shut down?
If god dude isn't going to defend his OP or even contribute constructively shouldn't this be shut down? I realize pickings are slim, but one thing this forum has is standards.
The science side has definitively and overwhelmingly won the debate. There seems to be no more the anti-science crowd can present.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6642
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 42 of 61 (893330)
04-05-2022 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Theodoric
04-05-2022 8:18 AM


Re: Shut down?
Look at the date the OP was left. Yeah, he got me too. Message 26

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5074
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 43 of 61 (893331)
04-05-2022 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by The Real God
04-05-2022 1:09 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Poe-try.

POE try this. POE try that.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7316
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 44 of 61 (893333)
04-05-2022 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
04-05-2022 9:59 AM


Re: Shut down?
Lol. Got me.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 04-05-2022 9:59 AM AZPaul3 has taken no action

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4071
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 45 of 61 (893337)
04-05-2022 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
04-05-2022 9:59 AM


Re: Shut down?
AZPaul3 writes:

Yeah, he got me too.

Yup, got me too

Albeit I was in the other direction.
I thought it was awesome and fun that we were promoting such a topic "for real"


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