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Author Topic:   Rebuttal To Creationists - "Since We Can't Directly Observe Evolution..."
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 2401 of 2926 (903213)
12-06-2022 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2394 by AZPaul3
12-05-2022 4:38 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
AZPaul3 writes:
Made of cast-offs like any sausage.
I call them "pork sweepings".
Disclaimer: Coming from a German background, I practically live on sausage... and I'm still alive.
My brother used to say we couldn't afford real Spam; we only got artificial Spam.
AZPaul3 writes:
And it's been on-and-off popular in world society since Hormel dropped its first can.
Apparently it's unusually popular in Hawaii: 9 Reasons Why Spam Became Hawaii’s Most Beloved Food
And now, back to Kishony, Lenski and Desai.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2394 by AZPaul3, posted 12-05-2022 4:38 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2404 by Theodoric, posted 12-06-2022 12:42 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 2402 of 2926 (903215)
12-06-2022 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2397 by Kleinman
12-06-2022 10:39 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
It looks like AZPaul3 has found his calling.
Go play in your room, Kleinman. The adults are talking here.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2397 by Kleinman, posted 12-06-2022 10:39 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2409 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:24 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 2403 of 2926 (903220)
12-06-2022 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2399 by Kleinman
12-06-2022 10:58 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
You are wrong Taq, descent with modification works the same way for sexual replicators as it does with asexual replicators.
The one sentence that disqualifies Kleinman from commenting on evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2399 by Kleinman, posted 12-06-2022 10:58 AM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2405 by Theodoric, posted 12-06-2022 12:44 PM Taq has replied
 Message 2410 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:28 PM Taq has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 2404 of 2926 (903227)
12-06-2022 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2401 by ringo
12-06-2022 11:29 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Hawai'i and Spam are similar to why salted cod is a delicacy in Puerto Rico. Bacalao was a cheap food for the colonizers to send to the island. When the US took over in 1898 they proceeded to destroy the agriculture system on the island. The plan was to turn Puerto Ricans(after major depopulation of the island) int worker drones for the factories that US industry was going to open on the island. When this all failed, agriculture destroyed, few factories, attempt to sterilize vast majority of women stopped, the US military government realized they had to do something. Salt cod, Bacalao, was an answer.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2401 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 11:29 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2405 of 2926 (903228)
12-06-2022 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2403 by Taq
12-06-2022 12:06 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
This is the thing I have been amazed about from the beginning. His inability to understand the vast difference between asexual and sexual. Maybe he is not familiar with sex in evolution or as a practical matter.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2403 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 12:06 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2406 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 12:51 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 2411 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:29 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 2406 of 2926 (903229)
12-06-2022 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2405 by Theodoric
12-06-2022 12:44 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Theodoric writes:
This is the thing I have been amazed about from the beginning. His inability to understand the vast difference between asexual and sexual. Maybe he is not familiar with sex in evolution or as a practical matter.
That's my suspicion. Even worse, he doesn't seem inclined to learn about sexual reproduction. It's almost as if he is trying to play the plausible deniability card. If he doesn't understand sexual reproduction then he can "plausibly" deny that his papers don't apply to all situations. That's probably why he refuses to engage with anything outside of his usual hobby horses. He can't venture outside of his own echo chamber. He can't even deal with a paper that discusses a beneficial mutation rate in E. coli of 1 in 10 million replications. His mind glitches and he does whatever he can to never address it. That's not part of the echo chamber, so he can't even begin to admit that it exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2405 by Theodoric, posted 12-06-2022 12:44 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2407 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2022 5:54 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 2412 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:30 PM Taq has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 2407 of 2926 (903235)
12-06-2022 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2406 by Taq
12-06-2022 12:51 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Remember he has religious motivations to show the diversity of evolution genetically impossible. Like any creationist stance, he has to obfuscate and lie to maintain his delusion.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2406 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 12:51 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2413 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2408 of 2926 (903272)
12-07-2022 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2400 by ringo
12-06-2022 11:18 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
So post the links.
ringo:
Why should I do your homework for you?

It's not my homework, they are your imaginary links.
Message 2401
AZPaul3:
And it's been on-and-off popular in world society since Hormel dropped its first can.
ringo:
Apparently it's unusually popular in Hawaii: 9 Reasons Why Spam Became Hawaii’s Most Beloved Food

And now, back to Kishony, Lenski and Desai.

Oh boy, ringo is going to give the physical and mathematical explanations for the Kishony, Lenski, and Desai experiments!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2400 by ringo, posted 12-06-2022 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2422 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:15 AM Kleinman has replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2409 of 2926 (903273)
12-07-2022 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2402 by AZPaul3
12-06-2022 11:37 AM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
It looks like AZPaul3 has found his calling.
AZPaul3:
Go play in your room, Kleinman. The adults are talking here.

Ok, everyone quiet, AZPaul3 is going to explain his research on Spam. Too bad it isn't biological evolution but that's too confusing for AZPaul3.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2402 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2022 11:37 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2410 of 2926 (903274)
12-07-2022 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2403 by Taq
12-06-2022 12:06 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman:
You are wrong Taq, descent with modification works the same way for sexual replicators as it does with asexual replicators.
Taq:
The one sentence that disqualifies Kleinman from commenting on evolution.

Since you have never done the mathematics of descent with modification for asexual replicators, that obviously makes you an expert on descent with modification for sexual replicators. So tell us, how are new alleles created for sexual replicators

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2403 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 12:06 PM Taq has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2411 of 2926 (903275)
12-07-2022 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 2405 by Theodoric
12-06-2022 12:44 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Theodoric:
This is the thing I have been amazed about from the beginning. His inability to understand the vast difference between asexual and sexual. Maybe he is not familiar with sex in evolution or as a practical matter.
If Theodoric can take some time away from Spam, perhaps he would explain how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2405 by Theodoric, posted 12-06-2022 12:44 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2412 of 2926 (903276)
12-07-2022 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2406 by Taq
12-06-2022 12:51 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Theodoric:
This is the thing I have been amazed about from the beginning. His inability to understand the vast difference between asexual and sexual. Maybe he is not familiar with sex in evolution or as a practical matter.
Taq:
That's my suspicion. Even worse, he doesn't seem inclined to learn about sexual reproduction. It's almost as if he is trying to play the plausible deniability card. If he doesn't understand sexual reproduction then he can "plausibly" deny that his papers don't apply to all situations. That's probably why he refuses to engage with anything outside of his usual hobby horses. He can't venture outside of his own echo chamber. He can't even deal with a paper that discusses a beneficial mutation rate in E. coli of 1 in 10 million replications. His mind glitches and he does whatever he can to never address it. That's not part of the echo chamber, so he can't even begin to admit that it exists.

We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2406 by Taq, posted 12-06-2022 12:51 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2414 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 3:33 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2423 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:17 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Kleinman
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 2142
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016


Message 2413 of 2926 (903277)
12-07-2022 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2407 by AZPaul3
12-06-2022 5:54 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
APaul3:
Remember he has religious motivations to show the diversity of evolution genetically impossible. Like any creationist stance, he has to obfuscate and lie to maintain his delusion.
Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible, don't blame religion on your burst bubble. It was really a stupid idea, to begin with. Look at how you twist the fossil record to fit your illusions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2407 by AZPaul3, posted 12-06-2022 5:54 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2415 by Taq, posted 12-07-2022 3:35 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2416 by AZPaul3, posted 12-07-2022 4:11 PM Kleinman has replied
 Message 2425 by ringo, posted 12-08-2022 11:20 AM Kleinman has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 2414 of 2926 (903278)
12-07-2022 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2412 by Kleinman
12-07-2022 3:30 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
We are waiting for you to explain to us how new alleles are created in sexual replicators.
New alleles are created by mutation. Where asexual and sexual populations differ is how those beneficial mutations interact within the population.
quote:
To investigate how sex improves the efficiency of selection, we analysed the dynamics of adaptation. As in earlier studies21,22, asexual populations exhibit signatures of hitchhiking and clonal interference (Fig. 2a–d). Groups of functionally unrelated mutations, linked within the same genetic background, change in frequency together as clonal cohorts. The outcomes of evolution are determined by competition between these cohorts. In contrast, sexual populations are not characterized by cohorts of linked mutations (Fig. 2e–h). Instead, the dynamics of each mutation is largely independent of other variation in the population. In these populations, mutations that occur on different backgrounds fix independently, while others briefly hitchhike to moderate frequencies where they persist or are eliminated from the population.
Sex speeds adaptation by altering the dynamics of molecular evolution | Nature

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2412 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:30 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2418 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:34 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 2415 of 2926 (903279)
12-07-2022 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2413 by Kleinman
12-07-2022 3:32 PM


Re: Kleinman Admits He's A Fraud.
Kleinman writes:
Just because the physics, mathematics, and experimental and empirical evidence show that UCD is impossible,
Your math is wrong because it does not incorporate sexual reproduction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2413 by Kleinman, posted 12-07-2022 3:32 PM Kleinman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2419 by Kleinman, posted 12-08-2022 8:37 AM Taq has replied

  
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