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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3586 of 3694 (914680)
01-29-2024 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3585 by candle2
01-29-2024 1:08 PM


Re: Daniel
quote:
Paulk, you wrote that the HRE died in 1806. By my
calculation this happened 1814. 554 + 1260=1814.
Where are you getting those numbers from? The Holy Roman Empire began with the coronation of Charlemagne in 800 AD
quote:
But let's make something clear, the beast did not
disappear. It remained in 12 little Italian states that
united in 1870 by Garibaldi.
Which aren’t anything to do with the Holy Roman Empire. So just how many kingdoms is this “Beast” of yours?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3585 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 1:08 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3589 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 2:19 PM PaulK has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3587 of 3694 (914681)
01-29-2024 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3559 by PaulK
01-27-2024 7:31 AM


Re: Daniel
Paulk, the number of the beast is 666. This number
stands for the kingdom, it's first king, and everyone in
the kingdom.
Romulus was the founder and first king of Rome.
The NT was written in Greek; the OT was written in Hebrew.
The Hebrew name for Romulus is Romiith. In numerical
value for each letter is: R=200; O=6; M=40; I=10; I=10; &
TH=400. 666.
Latin man, or the name of Latium from which city the
Romans derived their origin and their language is
Latinos in Greek.
The numerical value of Lateinos in Greek is: L=30; A=1;
T=300; E=5; I=10; N=50; O=70; S=200. 666.
No other two words, with same numerical value, can be
found in two languages meaning the same thing.
666 can also be applied to other kings of Rome, as well
as the RCC. I don't have time to ho onto it now.
The beast and its image in Revelation 13 is Rome and
the RCC, the HRE.
The little horn, the image of the beast, the whore that
rides the scarlet colored beast are all the same-RCC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3559 by PaulK, posted 01-27-2024 7:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3588 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2024 2:17 PM candle2 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3588 of 3694 (914682)
01-29-2024 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3587 by candle2
01-29-2024 1:46 PM


Re: Daniel
quote:
Paulk, the number of the beast is 666. This number
stands for the kingdom, it's first king, and everyone in
the kingdom.
Not really. All Revelation says is that it’s a numerological value for one man’s name. And there are manuscripts that say it’s 616, too.
quote:
The Hebrew name for Romulus is Romiith. In numerical
value for each letter is: R=200; O=6; M=40; I=10; I=10; &
TH=400. 666.
Even if that is the correct transliteration it doesn’t get you any further in interpreting Daniel, because Rome is not a major player in those prophecies. And I note that you feel free to use Hebrew or Greek to help get the result you want.
But of course if it’s all about the Roman Empire it can’t be about the barely-connected Holy Roman Empire (famously “neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire”).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3587 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 1:46 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3590 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 2:23 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 3593 by dwise1, posted 01-29-2024 3:47 PM PaulK has not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3589 of 3694 (914683)
01-29-2024 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 3586 by PaulK
01-29-2024 1:34 PM


Re: Daniel
Paulk, you stated:
"Which aren’t anything to do with the Holy Roman Empire.
So just how many kingdoms is this “Beast” of yours?"
***Most grownups, when stating that something is not
what someone else says it is, tells us what they believe
that something is. But not the one who have no idea
what they are talking about.
I have told many times how man horns this beast has had.
It's not my beast. I am an Israelite, from the tribe of
Manasseh, son of Joseph.
Paulk, you lack the ability to even guess who the beast, and
the image of the beast in Rev. 13 is. You have no idea who
the whore (harlot) that rides the scarlet colored beast
is, or what the scarlet colored beast is.
You are as lost as a little boy regarding what the mark of
the beast is.
You do not know what the beast and its image is, nor do
you know what they are not. You are totally in over your
head, and you pretend that you are not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3586 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2024 1:34 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3591 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2024 2:35 PM candle2 has not replied
 Message 3594 by Phat, posted 01-29-2024 3:55 PM candle2 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3590 of 3694 (914685)
01-29-2024 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3588 by PaulK
01-29-2024 2:17 PM


Re: Daniel
Paulk, you stated:
"Not really. All Revelation says is that it’s a numerological
value for one man’s name. And there are manuscripts that
say it’s 616, too."
***I don't care what these other manuscripts say. They
mean nothing to me.
You need to read Rev. 13 again.
In any event, you have no idea what Revelation is about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3588 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2024 2:17 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3592 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2024 2:39 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3591 of 3694 (914686)
01-29-2024 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3589 by candle2
01-29-2024 2:19 PM


Re: Daniel
quote:
***Most grownups, when stating that something is not
what someone else says it is, tells us what they believe
that something is. But not the one who have no idea
what they are talking about
The part of my post you chose to quote simply asked a question. Which you haven’t answered. Dishonest evasion accompanied by insult is hardly productive discussion.
Now the fourth Beast of Daniel 7 is A Kingdom. Not a collection of kingdoms that aren’t even closely related, so I guess you can’t be talking about that beast.
quote:
It's not my beast. I am an Israelite, from the tribe of
Manasseh, son of Joseph.
No, you aren’t. We can be sure of that.
And don’t worry. You don’t understand Revelation any more than I do. Probably less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3589 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 2:19 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 3592 of 3694 (914687)
01-29-2024 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3590 by candle2
01-29-2024 2:23 PM


Re: Daniel
quote:
You need to read Rev. 13 again.
And if I do what will I find out? That I was correct to say that Revelation only tells us that it is the numerological value of a man’s name?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3590 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 2:23 PM candle2 has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5945
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 3593 of 3694 (914692)
01-29-2024 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 3588 by PaulK
01-29-2024 2:17 PM


Re: Daniel
candle2 writes:
The Hebrew name for Romulus is Romiith. In numerical
value for each letter is: R=200; O=6; M=40; I=10; I=10; &
TH=400. 666.
Even if that is the correct transliteration it doesn’t get you any further in interpreting Daniel, because Rome is not a major player in those prophecies. And I note that you feel free to use Hebrew or Greek to help get the result you want.
candle2 seems to forget that Hebrew is written using the Hebrew alphabet. He also forgets that there are no vowels in the Hebrew alphabet, but rather they are ALL consonants (including two silent letters which are pronounced differently).
If he wants to make claims based on how something is written IN HEBREW, then he needs to provide the Hebrew spelling, not relying only on a transliteration (in the same manner that folk apologists will place great weight on naïve interpretations of word in English).
Now, on my phone's Translate app I switched to Hebrew English and typed in רומיית, which it translated as "Roman". candle2, having copied without comprehension from apologists, assumed (as his sources also did no doubt, given their predilection for regurgitating what they're told, completely bypassing the brain) the values for vav for "O" (ו = 6) and for yodh for "I" (י = 10). Again, there are no Hebrew letters for vowels (eg, the kholem and the shuru are modifications of a letter, not letters in their own right -- grammarians may quibble), plus he should have based his calculation on the Hebrew, not on a Latin transliteration.
And I note that you feel free to use Hebrew or Greek to help get the result you want.
He reminds me of that running joke in the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU); eg:
quote:
Maria Hill: We are the Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division. Do you understand what that means?
Grant Ward: That somebody really wanted a name that spelled out SHIELD.

That joke apparently came from the literature, since Wikipedia reports of Victoria Hand's promotion in SHIELD's replacement agency, HAMMER:
quote:
She was also given the task of finding an acronym for H.A.M.M.E.R.
In very similar fashion, apologists have gone to great lengths to find words or names that somehow come out to 666. Start with your conclusion and sift through a shitload of possibilities until you "magically" find some random name that works. That's their Standing Operating Procedure (SOP).
 
And as you already know but candle2 refuses to learn, the Holy Roman Empire was dissolved on 6 August 1806. That is an actual historical fact, not that candle2 ever had anything to do with actual facts. I believe that it is what the Doctor would refer to as a fixed point in time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3588 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2024 2:17 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3607 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2024 10:26 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18281
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3594 of 3694 (914694)
01-29-2024 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3589 by candle2
01-29-2024 2:19 PM


Re: Daniel
candle2 writes:
It's not my beast. I am an Israelite, from the tribe of
Manasseh, son of Joseph.
More of your cult's false teaching.
Overview of Doctrinal Errors in Herbert Armstrong’s Mystery of the Ages
You are no more an Israelite than I am the man in the moon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3589 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 2:19 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3596 by PaulK, posted 01-29-2024 4:12 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 3601 by candle2, posted 01-30-2024 12:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 3604 by candle2, posted 01-30-2024 1:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9118
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 3595 of 3694 (914695)
01-29-2024 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3585 by candle2
01-29-2024 1:08 PM


Re: Daniel
The HRE dissolved 6 August 1806. That is a historical fact.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3585 by candle2, posted 01-29-2024 1:08 PM candle2 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3596 of 3694 (914696)
01-29-2024 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3594 by Phat
01-29-2024 3:55 PM


Re: Daniel
Now, now candle2 isn’t a follower of Herbert W. Armstrong - he’s a follower of the man that Herbert W Armstrong got - or stole - the idea from.
Herbert W. Armstrong - A Plagiarist?
It’s all crap. No matter who gets the (dis)credit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3594 by Phat, posted 01-29-2024 3:55 PM Phat has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5945
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 3597 of 3694 (914697)
01-29-2024 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3583 by Phat
01-29-2024 8:34 AM


Re: By Definition
DWise1 has a good argument that indicates that the specifics of Biblical Creationism are not backed by evidence.
A couple quibbles:
  1. "Biblical Creationism" is a bit ambiguous, especially considering that creationism (mostly identified with young earth creationism (YEC), though many forms of that dishonest anti-evolution/anti-science movement have disassociated themselves from young earth claims and for very good reason) actually opposes an actual Divine Creation, since most of their claims (especially the young-earth ones) take the position that if the Creation is truly as it actually is, then that disproves the Creator.
    Divine Creation would have been a supernatural event by supernatural agencies (eg, "God"). Due to the very nature of the supernatural, there can be no physical evidence of the supernatural, so it's not backed by evidence (outside of claims made by anonymous sources).
    Of course the question will arise concerning the interface between the natural and the supernatural, for example the supernatural act of Creation resulting in the natural reality which is the Creation. How is that supposed to work? A possible analogy would be a fundamental problem in designing a computer operating system (OS). The OS does all its work in protected mode while user applications work in non-protected mode such that neither can encroach of the other's domain and resources; the purpose for that is to protect the OS (and the entire computer system) from the poor or malicious behavior of the users. If a user wants to use an OS service, he needs some way to request that service and then allow the system to go into protected mode in order to service that request. A common approach is to use the interrupt system, which I will spare you of. The main point is that getting two very incompatible systems to interface can require indirect methods and no small amount of cleverness.
    But even at such a hypothetical boundary between the natural and the supernatural, supernatural processes would still be undetectable by us mere humans. Therefore, Divine Creation is not backed by evidence. Doesn't automatically mean that it had happened that way, but rather that we cannot determine that it had, nor can we determine anything about how it happened. Despite candle2 stating that he knows HOW Creation happened (he claimed such knowledge for the origin of life), he was definitely lying about it since we lack direct access to such knowledge, but instead must rely on what others tell us, who in turn are relying to what others had told them, which Thomas Paine described as "hearsay upon hearsay thousands of times over" (paraphrased from memory).
  2. My argument is not that "the specifics of Biblical Creationism are not backed by evidence", but rather that creationist claims are contradicted by the evidence. That's a significant difference. Indeed, creationist claims rely on lying about the evidence.
I have no problem with someone not accepting evolution, but I do expect them to do so based on the actual evidence and on what evolution actually is. If they reject evolution (or anything else) based on lies and misrepresentations, then we do have a problem.
[DWise1] does NOT have any such case against the Creator of all seen and unseen characterized by His eternally living Son..
Nor has that been part of my discussions here. Though I would contend that no claim of the supernatural is supported by objective evidence. Indeed, my position on the supernatural is that there is no human-detectable evidence for it outside of subjective feelings (indistinguishable from having eaten a bad burrito) or traditional teachings based on generations of making stuff up and then expanding on that. And the basic problem with making up stuff about the supernatural is that there's no way to test it outside of internal inconsistencies (which just get explained away by apologists, so even that test doesn't exist).
And if the idea of a supernatural something has no evidence and cannot be tested, then highly specified and intricately detailed theologies are even more lacking. Refer to the typical got-cha argument against atheists where they get the atheist to admit that it is possible for A god to exist, whereupon they immediately use that as "proof" for their own intricate theology being the complete and absolute truth to the exclusion of all others.
Instead of just naïvely assuming (or proclaiming) that their own version of "God" and "Jesus" is the only true one which everybody else must accept (refer to what's been going on between ICANT and candle2), believers must make an actual case for theirs. If they want to claim that their version is backed up evidence, then they must produce that evidence. The burden of proof is upon the believer, not upon the disbeliever.
I understand the position that a believer is in. Agnosticism is the realization that we cannot know anything about the supernatural, even whether it exists let alone the highly specific details that have evolved in theologies (the problem with evolutionary processes is that they generate high levels of complexity). As such, agnosticism is the only honest position to take on the gods. From there you either don't try to assume any gods (atheism) or you assume that a god must exist (theism).
Once you decide on theism, then you must also decide on which god and which teachings about that/those god(s). The believer ends up adopting a particular chain of hearsay-upon-hearsay-thousands-of-times-over. That's how that game is played. You've made your bed and now you must lie in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3583 by Phat, posted 01-29-2024 8:34 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3608 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2024 12:25 AM dwise1 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3598 of 3694 (914713)
01-30-2024 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3556 by PaulK
01-27-2024 6:47 AM


Re: Daniel
Paulk, most Nazis went underground (under cover,
bottomless pit) at the end of WW2. A good many of
then went underground before the war ended.
The Nazis understood that they could possibly lose the
war. And, by 1943 (fighting on multiple fronts) many of
them believed they would lose.
However, they set the stage to rise again. They did not
just say goodbye; they said, goodbye for now.
Many key German industries, such as Volkswagen and
Messerschmitt, made contact with foreign firms in
order to assure survival after the war.
Not only did numerous nazi leaders go underground (the
bottomless pit), but they took great wealth with them.
They were assisted in their escape by both the RCC and
Spain, which remained neutral during the war.
Nahum 3 talks about the end-time Germany (Assyria).
3:17 "Your commanders are like swarming locusts,
And your Generals like great grasshoppers, which camp
in the hedges on a cold day; when the sun rises they flee
away, and the place where they are is not known."
They escaped to Argentina and other places. Some even
came to America.
Germany was not allowed to permitted to have a military
after the war, but they kept a force of 40,000 men, 2000
officers.
Germany's Foreign Minister, Finance Minister, Justice
Minister, police force, and government staff retained
70%-90% of the staff they had during the war.
They plundered the finances of the Jews to finance the
government. This covered about 30% of the government
expenses.
Those who remained in power covered up for their
fellow Nazis. From day one they functioned as a Nazi
regime.
Not only did many Nazis stay in power, but some became
high ranking commanders of NATO.
The Nazi government were experts at covering up,
denying, and repressing damaging information.
Many of those who retained power were from the SS,
Gestapo, and Stormtroppers.
Historians have known about this for decades. But it is
always played down.
The 7th head of the beast will soon show itself. It will
consist to 10 European nations. Some situation will
cause them to come together. Many nations that are in
the European Union, at this time, will not be in the end-time
beast power.
Germany went from a destroyed Nation at the end of
WW1 to the having the world's most powerful military in
less than twenty years.
The U.S. have nuclear weapons in Germany. We have a
government that would do nothing if they confiscated
them. We are timid and afraid of our own shadow. We
have women and little boys leading us.
America is only interested in fake racial relations, abortion
issues, and homosexual and transgender issues. These
are the issues that consume our leaders.
America (Manasseh) will soon be reduced to nothing; we
are now the world's Joker.
When America falls the world will descend into chaos. We
will no longer be the stabilizing force. Germany, and the
other nine nations will pull the world out of it.
The world (not including the kings of the East) will wonder
after the beast. And the false prophet will perform miracles
(when in the presence of Satan), which will greatly deceive
humanity. There will not be many atheists at that time.
I will have to limit my posting over the next few weeks,
but I will reply to you when I have the time.
I advise you look into the beast going into the
bottomless pit.
When one understands exactly who and what the beast
and the image of the beast is, one will then understand
what the mark of the beast is.
I am trying to get people to open their eyes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3556 by PaulK, posted 01-27-2024 6:47 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3599 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2024 8:08 AM candle2 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3599 of 3694 (914714)
01-30-2024 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3598 by candle2
01-30-2024 7:56 AM


Re: Daniel
So rather than discuss the subject - or even explain your assertions you go off rambling about Nazis, who have nothing to do with the subject. And your own freedom-hating anti-American nonsense isn’t on-topic either.
I get that you spout ridiculous nonsense. It isn’t a reason to believe any of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3598 by candle2, posted 01-30-2024 7:56 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3600 by candle2, posted 01-30-2024 11:14 AM PaulK has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 844
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3600 of 3694 (914716)
01-30-2024 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3599 by PaulK
01-30-2024 8:08 AM


Re: Daniel
Paulk, what I have done is to prove to you that the little
horn, the whore riding the scarlet colored beast, and the
image of the beast are all the same. They are the RCC.
The 10 horns in Daniel 7 and the legs and feet in Daniel
2 are the Roman Empire.
The last seven horns of the 10 horns in Daniel 7 rule with
the RCC. Together that firm the HRE.
The toes on the image in Daniel 2 are the ten kings on the
7th head of the beast in Revelation.
There is absolutely no reason why anyone cannot see
that the mark of authority of the RCC is Sunday.
Never does the Holy Bible command Sunday to replace
the Saturday Sabbath. It doesn't do it.
And we have people on this site that will say. Nowhere
does the Bible tell us not to worship on Sunday. This is
called foolish reasoning.
One even states that Jesus met with His disciples two
Sundays in a row. He even takes it as rock solid proof
that Sunday is the new Sabbath.
The Nazis did not say goodbye. They said goodbye for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3599 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2024 8:08 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3603 by PaulK, posted 01-30-2024 1:20 PM candle2 has not replied

  
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