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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3646 of 3730 (915458)
02-13-2024 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3644 by ICANT
02-13-2024 10:48 AM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
ICANT, the blood of animals was not capable of
clearing the ancient israelites of sin, neither could
burnt offerings.
Hebrews 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls
and goats could take away sin."
The priests could make a sin offering for atonement, but
this not clear one of guilt.
The sin offering could cover (kaphar) sin, but it was
impossible for the blood of animals to clear one of guilt.
It was like a bandage.
This same word, kaphar, was used to cover the Ark, on the
inside and outside with pitch.
If the blood of animals could take away sin, then Jesus
died for nothing.
Salvation was never offered to the ancient israelites. The
Old Covenant was could save no one.
The men of faith in the OT knew Jesus, who at that time
was the Word.
He revealed Himself to them, and they accepted His
future sacrifice. They placed their faith in Him.
The people in the OT will receive their calling in the future.
Everybody who has ever lived will get a calling. God does
not show partiality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3644 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2024 10:48 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3647 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2024 7:42 PM candle2 has replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3647 of 3730 (915463)
02-13-2024 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3646 by candle2
02-13-2024 6:40 PM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
Hi C2
C2 writes:
Hebrews 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls
and goats could take away sin."
It was not the blood of the bulls and goats that took away their sin but their obedience to obey God by doing what He said.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3646 by candle2, posted 02-13-2024 6:40 PM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3653 by candle2, posted 02-14-2024 8:18 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3648 of 3730 (915467)
02-13-2024 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3645 by candle2
02-13-2024 2:52 PM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
Hi C2,
Amos 3:1-2 "Hear this word that the Lord has spoken
against you. O children of Israel, against the whole
family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:

You only have I known of all the families of the earth;..."

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the Lord
your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a
people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples
on the face of the earth."
I got no problem with those verses
Abraham's descendants are a special chosen people to God
The problem is that : They rejected the Messiah and killed Him
quote:
Mark 8:32And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
33But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
quote:
9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
23And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
quote:
Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Jesus said He would build οἰκοδομέω (begin to build] His Church. A Church is a called out assembly for a specific reason.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. his church
quote:
John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
John said the bridegroom had His bride the only thing with Jesus was His Church thus His bride. Today the Bride is the chosen people.
The devil has infiltrated the church today that she is fast becoming like Abrahams descendants. Most have rejected God and the time is fast approaching that God will say enough is enough.
Stick with the subject.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3645 by candle2, posted 02-13-2024 2:52 PM candle2 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3649 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2024 9:27 PM ICANT has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 3649 of 3730 (915468)
02-13-2024 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3648 by ICANT
02-13-2024 9:13 PM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
The devil has infiltrated the church today that she is fast becoming like Abrahams descendants. Most have rejected God and the time is fast approaching that God will say enough is enough.
What's he going to do? Stomp off in a fit and go haunt some other life's nightmares?
That'd be good. When does he leave human consciousness?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3648 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2024 9:13 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3650 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 9:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 3650 of 3730 (915469)
02-13-2024 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 3649 by AZPaul3
02-13-2024 9:27 PM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
How would we know?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3649 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2024 9:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3651 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-13-2024 10:32 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 3652 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2024 10:43 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 3651 of 3730 (915471)
02-13-2024 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3650 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 9:29 PM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
How would we know?
ICANT or some other knowitall will tell us.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3650 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 9:29 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 3652 of 3730 (915472)
02-13-2024 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3650 by Theodoric
02-13-2024 9:29 PM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
How would we know?
Well, Tany hit it.
In reality, nothing would change since it's just a fantasy.
But, since THEY get to have theirs I claim the god-given right to mine.
I say if the religion memes finally left the human meme-pool then there would be peace, glorious peace. All war and all acts of barbarity would cease and an era of enlightenment, intellect and social humanism would flower forever after.
Or at least we'd have taken a step in that direction.
Alas, alack, this universe will not conform to my fantasies any more than she does to theirs.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3650 by Theodoric, posted 02-13-2024 9:29 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3655 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 2:52 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3653 of 3730 (915495)
02-14-2024 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3647 by ICANT
02-13-2024 7:42 PM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
ICANT, you stated:
"It was not the blood of the bulls and goats that took
away their sin but their obedience to obey God by doing
what He said."
***The Old Covenant never listed going to heaven as a
reward for complying with their OC agreement.
Read it yourself!
If the Israelites lived up to the agreement, God promised
then blessings of the the earth and flesh. That's all.
He promised to:
Give them land.
Protect them from their enemies.
Lots of children.
Long physical life.
Abundant crops.
Provide them health and healing.
The OC was signed with the blood of animals.
An individual can slaughter all the animals they want,
but it won't save them.
The OC agreement expanded on the 10 Commandments,
which had been in force since creation.
It also covered issues such as personal injury; legal and
property matters; how to worship God; etc....
Any matters discussed in Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy are relative to the OC deal found in
Exodus 20-24
Hebrews 8:6 "But now He has obtained a more excellent
ministry, insomuch as He is also Mediator of a better
Covenant, which was established on better promises.
The better promises consists of eternal life as members
of the family of God.
8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put
My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and
I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
The laws, including His 10 Commandments, will not be
done away with. The exact opposite is true.
They will be engraved in our mind and heart.
Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah, David, and the other men
of faith in the OT knew Jesus, and they had His Holy
Spirit.
Only those God called and enlightened in OT times were
promised eternal life, and rulership in His coming Kingdom.
They accepted Christ's sacrifice centuries beforehand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3647 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2024 7:42 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3654 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 2:13 AM candle2 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 3654 of 3730 (915569)
02-15-2024 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 3653 by candle2
02-14-2024 8:18 AM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
I CANT likely wont respond to you but I will.
I have charged you with being in a cult. They have convinced you, a former orphen, that you are now a member of the "God family" and they are that family.
C2 writes:
Only those God called and enlightened in OT times were
promised eternal life, and rulership in His coming Kingdom.
They accepted Christ's sacrifice centuries beforehand.
So by telling you that you are a descendant of one of the ten tribes, you too will be called and enlightened and somehow you know a secret that a veteran Pastor such as I CANT has no clue about.
Quit trying to show off and teach other Christians. We know as much as any leader in your church. What...you somehow think that your church has a higher truth than other churches? C'mon...get real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3653 by candle2, posted 02-14-2024 8:18 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3657 by candle2, posted 02-15-2024 8:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 3655 of 3730 (915572)
02-15-2024 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3652 by AZPaul3
02-13-2024 10:43 PM


Just Sayin
The Universe has no gender. Just sayin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3652 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2024 10:43 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3656 by AZPaul3, posted 02-15-2024 5:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 3656 of 3730 (915578)
02-15-2024 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 3655 by Phat
02-15-2024 2:52 AM


Re: Just Sayin
How would you know? You abandoned her for this bad boy Satan of yours.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3655 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 2:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
candle2
Member
Posts: 873
Joined: 12-31-2018


Message 3657 of 3730 (915579)
02-15-2024 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3654 by Phat
02-15-2024 2:13 AM


Re: Candle is lit by Armstrongism...not the Bible.
Phat, you wrote:
"So by telling you that you are a descendant of one of the
ten tribes, you too will be called and enlightened and
somehow you know a secret that a veteran Pastor such
as I CANT has no clue about."
Being a descendant of a tribe of Israel has nothing to do
about what I believe that the Bible teaches. It is not
relevant.
J.H.Allen, in his book "Judah's Scepter and Joseph's
Birthright" was what convinced me. This plus what I
believe that Bible teaches.
I believe the Bible teaches that God will give everyone
who has ever lived an opportunity to know Him. This
includes those who have different religions, as well as
those who have never even heard the name of Jesus.
You and ICANT believe that those who have never even
heard the name of Jesus are in trouble. You seem to
think that it is somehow their fault.
I believe that after coming into the knowledge of Jesus,
and after rejecting Him, that these individuals will be
totally destroyed, that they will be left neither root nor
branch.
You and ICANT believe that those who reject Jesus,
including those who never even heard of Him, will burn
in a tortuous fire for eternity. Never does God show an
ounce of mercy and compassion for them.
I truly believe that what both you and ICANT teach is
satanic. It makes God out to be the evil one.
I believe that the Bible teaches that we can become sons
and daughters of God. We can become members of His
family. Why would Jesus humble Himself by getting down
on His knees and washing the feet of humans?
Why would Jesus allow Himself to be severely beaten,
and nailed to a stake, if we were not important to Him?
You have admitted that you simply have mo idea what
we can become.
I stated that the Old Covenant did not promise the
Israelites eternal life. It was not a spiritual contract.
Do not be upset with me for stating this. Simply open
your Bibles and prove me wrong. There is no reason
for any of us to become angry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3654 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 2:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3658 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 11:26 AM candle2 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 3658 of 3730 (915591)
02-15-2024 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 3657 by candle2
02-15-2024 8:40 AM


A Church Is A Church Is...
OK, I looked him up. Before we go any further, let's clarify which church that you claim to belong to.
Is it This One?
*Church of God (Holiness)*
If so, I apologize for accusing you of associating with Herbert W. Armstrong.
It appears that your church is quite conservative. I'm curious what Pastor ICANT says about them. Keep in mind that Pastor ICANT is an online friend much like many of the other members here at EvC. As you may have noted, they cannot stand him when he begins to talk about creationism vs evolution. I have no problem with him.
I also have no problem with educated debate and discussion. One member in particular whom I respect is DWise1. He takes the time to explain himself rather than just shooing me off as some of the other members do.
candle2 writes:
I truly believe that what both you and ICANT teach is
satanic. It makes God out to be the evil one.
I won't take that as a personal attack but will use it as an opportunity for clarification. I have never made God out to be evil simply for giving humanity a clear choice. Some secular critics accuse Him (or me) of being evil simply for teaching that Hell is a possibility. I always defend myself by saying that I believe that God never directly created evil but only the possibility of evil. God never created an evil satan. He allowed an angelic Being to freely choose to rebel against His autonomy and become the decision that it chose.
I can't back that up with scripture and would ask your opinion of it.
People are free to accept that a supernatural God exists or reject (and even mock) such a concept.
On a practical level, Christianity and Christian belief are judged by secularists not only as being unproven and fantasy-based but through the political association of conservative Christians. I myself am a political moderate, but I note that you don't discuss politics too often and would encourage you to stick to your teaching with scripture. They (the secularists or humanists) will likely ignore you, but at least Percy allows freedom of speech and encourages us to support our arguments in our own words. I am often guilty of posting a source of information yet never discussing it much in my own words.
C2 writes:
I believe the Bible teaches that God will give everyone
who has ever lived an opportunity to know Him. This
includes those who have different religions, as well as
those who have never even heard the name of Jesus.
Thanks for clarifying. I would expect that you also believe that the word will not return void, which is why you like to quote scripture. I cant say that I disagree with such a concept, but I am no fan of raw data, evidence, and information. I believe that our characters count as much as anything else which is why I have stuck around EvC for twenty years. Tangle claims it is insulting for me to joke about "converting" him, but what he may not know is that through his character God may yet "convert" me!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3657 by candle2, posted 02-15-2024 8:40 AM candle2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3659 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 1:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 3661 by candle2, posted 02-17-2024 10:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 3659 of 3730 (915648)
02-16-2024 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3658 by Phat
02-15-2024 11:26 AM


Re: A Church Is A Church Is...
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I'm curious what Pastor ICANT says about them.
I lived in Grand Cayman from 1989 until December 27, 2003. The church you referenced mentioned a church in Grand Cayman. If memory serves me right the church was built in 1999. I personally knew the Pastor that his church in Texas was instrumental in financing, building, and supporting the church. I attend the first sermon preached by him. He preached the gospel just like you have seen me post. His church was very strict on discipline of their members. We agreed on most things but they do not believe in the security of the believer. In other words you could be saved today and lost tomorrow. Paul tells us that when you have been enlightened if you could lose your salvation for you to be saved again Christ would have to come back and be crucified again.
quote:
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
He refused to believe that passage, but he didn't baptize them every time they got saved. Go figure.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3658 by Phat, posted 02-15-2024 11:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3660 by Phat, posted 02-17-2024 2:30 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 3662 by GDR, posted 03-16-2024 5:30 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 3660 of 3730 (915711)
02-17-2024 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3659 by ICANT
02-16-2024 1:29 AM


Once Saved Always....
In my view, God cant bring us back *if*we fall away. This brings up the question of what it means to fall away.
I would think that we only need saving once since salvation is a gift from God and not derived through works.
Repentance should happen at least daily. In my mind, as long as I realize that I am no longer my own and was bought with a price, I won't fall away, though I will and do sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3659 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2024 1:29 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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