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Author Topic:   Choosing a faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 3676 of 3730 (916993)
03-18-2024 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3672 by Tangle
03-18-2024 5:06 PM


Re: Saved for what?
Tangle writes:
No, you were making a point, equating the safety of children with increasing secularism.
Sure

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3672 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2024 5:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3678 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2024 5:53 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 3677 of 3730 (916994)
03-18-2024 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3673 by AZPaul3
03-18-2024 5:07 PM


Re: Saved for what?
AZPaul3 writes:
But what else besides your perception of increased secularism also changed in the preceding years? Did the disparity in wealth lessen? Did the population grow tremendously? Did the christian society fragment into deeper fundamental divisions?
‚Äč
What else changed about society besides your perceptions of the religion? Why do you seek to place "blame" for this perception change on secularism?
There are too many changes to mention but overall people then looked out more for others than what they do now. I don't have statics to prove it and it is simply an observation. As kid it was pretty much accepted that we would give up our seat on the bus to someone older than ourselves. There was simply far more courtesy and respect in our society.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3673 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2024 5:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3679 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2024 6:09 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 3685 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2024 8:33 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 3687 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-18-2024 8:44 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 3678 of 3730 (916996)
03-18-2024 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 3676 by GDR
03-18-2024 5:42 PM


Re: Saved for what?
GDR writes:
Sure
But don't you think you need to work out whether what you say is correct or just something you imagined or simply believe?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3676 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 5:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3682 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 8:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 3679 of 3730 (916998)
03-18-2024 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3677 by GDR
03-18-2024 5:49 PM


Re: Saved for what?
There was simply far more courtesy and respect in our society.
You think secularism caused the society to turn nasty? I blame the growing intolerance of white American christianity to accept difference, fear change.
Not secularism ... I blame you and your religion.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3677 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 5:49 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 3680 of 3730 (917000)
03-18-2024 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3664 by GDR
03-17-2024 7:42 PM


Re: Saved for what?
Was that before or after BIPOC were segregated? When I was a child there were places we could not rent or buy homes. Was this before or after interracial marriage? When I was born there were states where my parents could be arrested for being married. Was this before or after women could get credit in their own name. Is this when white supremacists were allowed to murder civil rights workers?
Please tell me about this wonderful world that existed before secular humanism. Seems like a place no one in my family (even the religious) got to experience.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3664 by GDR, posted 03-17-2024 7:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3681 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 8:09 PM Theodoric has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 3681 of 3730 (917001)
03-18-2024 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3680 by Theodoric
03-18-2024 7:42 PM


Re: Saved for what?
Theodoric writes:
Was that before or after BIPOC were segregated? When I was a child there were places we could not rent or buy homes. Was this before or after interracial marriage? When I was born there were states where my parents could be arrested for being married. Was this before or after women could get credit in their own name. Is this when white supremacists were allowed to murder civil rights workers?
Please tell me about this wonderful world that existed before secular humanism. Seems like a place no one in my family (even the religious) got to experience.
As I said before some things are better but racism is still evil and still around although but not as institutional as it was then. In my case I never observed racism growing up but that was on the prairies in Canada and wasn't obvious to me. I'm so sorry for what your family endured.
I certainly don't suggest that there wasn't evil that existed and sometimes in the name of corrupted Christianity.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3680 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2024 7:42 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3686 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2024 8:36 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 3682 of 3730 (917003)
03-18-2024 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 3678 by Tangle
03-18-2024 5:53 PM


Re: Saved for what?
Tangle writes:
But don't you think you need to work out whether what you say is correct or just something you imagined or simply believe?
Quick question. Would you rather have grown up when you did that now?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3678 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2024 5:53 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3690 by Tangle, posted 03-19-2024 8:04 AM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 3683 of 3730 (917004)
03-18-2024 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3668 by GDR
03-18-2024 4:06 PM


Re: Saved for what?
Children are safer now than any other time in the history of mankind.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3668 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 4:06 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(4)
Message 3684 of 3730 (917006)
03-18-2024 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3675 by GDR
03-18-2024 5:40 PM


Re: Saved for what?
Drugs were always a problem. Just the drugs changed. Teens have always had premarital sex. My grandmother, who was born jn 1910, was pregnant twice before she married my grandfather. He was the father of the youngest, but he raised the other as his own daughter. No one ever questioned or thought different. My grandmother was Canadian and a church goer.
There was no golden age of childhood innocence. It is just different now. People bitched the same when when TV came out. A generation earlier it was evil radio. In the late 1800's it was pulp magazines. Before that their were penny dreadfuls and dime novels. People bitched at the decay of society with the arrival of the printing press and people being able to read the Bible all by themselves. There was no golden age. Things slowly get better.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3675 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 5:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 3685 of 3730 (917007)
03-18-2024 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3677 by GDR
03-18-2024 5:49 PM


Re: Saved for what?
That still happens everyday. You sound like you live around a lot of shitty people.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3677 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 5:49 PM GDR has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 3686 of 3730 (917008)
03-18-2024 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3681 by GDR
03-18-2024 8:09 PM


Re: Saved for what?
plains of Canada and no First Nations? Weird. Oh yeah they were in government schools being tortured and killed.
All those people that did those evil things were christians.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3681 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 8:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3692 by GDR, posted 03-19-2024 8:35 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 3687 of 3730 (917009)
03-18-2024 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3677 by GDR
03-18-2024 5:49 PM


Re: Saved for what?
There are too many changes to mention but overall people then looked out more for others than what they do now...There was simply far more courtesy and respect in our society.
I think you are looking through rose colored glasses and where you grew up may have been insulated from what some of us saw growing up.
I graduated from high school in 1965 and remember a lot of civil unrest in the 50s through the 70s. I remember college students being shot for protesting, and there was a lot more than the war in Nam being rebelled against, post WWII.
My mother's side of my family were all ranchers and they all locked their doors at night and when they were not at home. All the families I knew growing up locked their doors and vehicles. Burglars didn't suddenly pop into existence in 1997 or something. I think it's a rural myth that "nobody locked their doors back in the old days."
One thing we didn't have here in the U.S. is more guns than citizens or nearly as many citizens.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3677 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 5:49 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3688 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2024 9:05 PM Tanypteryx has not replied
 Message 3689 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2024 9:50 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3693 by GDR, posted 03-19-2024 8:39 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5967
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 3688 of 3730 (917011)
03-18-2024 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3687 by Tanypteryx
03-18-2024 8:44 PM


Re: Saved for what?
I think it's a rural myth that "nobody locked their doors back in the old days."
Rural and small community are the key qualifiers. I'm about four years your junior (Class of '69) but I grew up in Orange County, basically a suburb of Los Angeles, and we always locked our houses, cars, and bikes (mine actually got stolen once as a kid). That was normal.
When I was stationed near Grand Forks, ND, ('77 to '82) we were surprised that few of the older people would locked their doors. Our neighbor told us about a little neighborhood kid who came in and made a mess in the kitchen; that was when we first heard that she didn't lock her door.
Part of the problem with driving in the winter (this was in the cold part of North Dakota, BTW) was making a lot of stops in town for shopping and business. You needed to drive for a certain amount of time to completely recharge the battery (cold weather puts much more strain on it) and to heat up the muffler to remove moisture, otherwise your battery would die and your muffler would rust out. Therefore, over the decades the locals had developed the habit of leaving their car running when they went into the store, and since it was a small town where everybody know everybody else, they trusted that nothing would happen. Every winter the local police would run articles begging the public to please lock their cars, but nobody did. Small town mentality.
Things have changed now, mainly in the western part of the state and because of the sudden influx of thousands of transient outsiders working the oil fields. That ended their small town mentality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3687 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-18-2024 8:44 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9274
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 3689 of 3730 (917013)
03-18-2024 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3687 by Tanypteryx
03-18-2024 8:44 PM


Re: Saved for what?
Don't tell anyone. We don't lock our door. I think I know where the key is. The neighbor kid was surprised the first time he watched our house when we travel. Our doors are expensive. TV's are cheap and I am insured. We have 8 houses on our 2 mile stretch of road. We look out for each other. No one is an armed lunatic. Joy of country living.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3687 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-18-2024 8:44 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 3690 of 3730 (917023)
03-19-2024 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3682 by GDR
03-18-2024 8:12 PM


Re: Saved for what?
GDR writes:
Would you rather have grown up when you did that now?
That's not a question that can be answered with any degree of rationality. What children need is their parents' love and care and so long as their basic needs of food, clothing, health, housing and friends are met, they'll be happy regardless.
All the stuff you worry about now are adult concerns and adults have those concerns at all times in history.
What I do remember are children in my class with calipers on their legs caused by polio. Those were the ones that survived it. I remember much talk amongst adults of children in 'iron lungs' until they died. A close friend died of measles and the girl across the street that I'd promised to marry died in an epileptic fit. Most adults seemed to have false teeth. Teachers could abuse kids with impunity - belting them with whatever implement came to hand from wooden blackboard dusters to purpose made canes.
Although I didn't know it - being a child - food was poor post-war and some families in my street had no men.
We were free to roam and we went everywhere on our bikes, but the roads had far less traffic then, not everyone had a car.
Doors where quite definately locked, burgalry wasn't invented in the 21st century. It was the age of consumer goods and electronics, stuff in house was worth stealing.
As for religion, the Catholic kids fought the Protestand kids in the streets. They had seperate schools - catlickers and proddydogs. All great fun until they found you on your own.
Society has always changed, some things have improved beyond recognition, some things feel like they're not as good, but when looked at objectively there's been a steady rise in living standards and a steady fall in crime for centuries. Those improvement are because of our secular institutions - religious belief is a drag on progress.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3682 by GDR, posted 03-18-2024 8:12 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3691 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-19-2024 12:36 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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