Choosing a faith

I can promise you that isn't the case. The thing is that there is a number of things I believe that are interesting things to think about and discuss but aren't important to me as far as maintaining my theistic faith, and then apart from that, my Christian faith.I believe that the Bible was written by humans that were inspired to write down their stories but that is not to be taken to me that is to be taken as 100% factual as if it was dictated by God. I believe that all of the Bible should be questioned and understood in terms of the time and culture in which it was written, and we should be discerning in how we understand it. I believe that God uses it to help guide us and we should try and understand what God might have to say to us through it. For example I suggest that we should look at the passages that have God commanding genocide or public stoning to demonstrate to us the evil that we are capable of in His name. There's a lesson there.What I do believe absolutely as a theist is that there is an external intelligence that is involved in our lives primarily if not exclusively through our consciousness. I also believe that this intelligence does care about us and influences us to care about others, all life and our planet.As a Christian I am convinced that God did resurrect Jesus into a renewed bodily form and that the ultimate plan is for the renewal of this world. As to when and how that occurs I have no idea. I also believe that if I want to understand the nature of God I can look to Jesus of the NT and read it holistically.So yes, many of things that I have have expressed here are simply beliefs that are related to but not essential for my general specific beliefs in Christianity. Those beliefs continue to evolve.

That part seems reasonable. There, I see you paying too much attention to consciousness. You are making it seem like magic. But it's just part of our evolved nature. Back when I became a Christian (at around age 11), I believed that. But later, at around age 17, I looked more carefully at the account of the resurrection in Matthew, and found it impossible to believe. Yes a God could work such miracles. But if those events occurred as described, then reports of that should have spread around the world. But they didn't. So I began to doubt the physical resurrection. And I guess that was my first step toward leaving Christianity.

Not a chance. And actually a bit insulting really.He has a deep faith confirmed by personal revelation. But his belief is the nice liberal kind that allows for alternative descriptions and is tolerant of them. It's a flexible belief system where even atheists can attain heaven so long as their hearts are in the right place.But given that, he's still interested in confirming his beliefs with "evidence" from science and history and he makes facts fit his belief.We should be grateful, he's a sane, intelligent guy interested in facts and evidence. It's unfortunate that he's not able to process them dispassionately because of his pre-existing beliefs but this is the best we can ever hope to find in a believer.My apologies GDR, that will sound incredibly patronising to you.

I see GDR's refuge in consciousness as just more of the age old, "Aha! Something science doesn't yet explain. Here be God!"--Percy

Isn't that the god of the synaptic gaps?

I wish I had the time to read back through all my old posts examining your replies to see which things I said that you ignored in your replies, but I don't. And my memory hasn't retained that large an amount of detail.But if there's a common theme around what you ignore it's evidence. It isn't so much that you ignore the issue of evidence as that you keep moving back and forth between claiming to have evidence on the one hand, and conceding you don't have evidence on the other.And it's frustrating to have to keep explaining the nature of evidence. Again, what you observe casually as you go about your day is no different in nature than what researchers do while doing science. Everyone makes observations all the time, and scientific procedure is just a more careful and detailed way of making and recording observations. The foundation of science is still nothing more than observation.And this is where religion is lacking. There are no observations. Realizing how important evidence can be to belief there are plenty of claims of observations, but religion seems to take a Machiavellian "The ends justify the means" approach. Too many pastors believe that if something they say increases faith then it is okay, whether it is true or not. What they believe it is okay to claim is all over the Internet. Even without your arguments for the authenticity of the gospels and the existence of Jesus, you're obviously lobbying for Christianity. You might have titled the thread Choosing a faith, but you're actually exploring what parts of Christianity to accept, not which faith to select. Of course it isn't exclusive to Christianity. That's been said many times in this thread, that unevidenced belief is common to all religions. You quote me saying it yet again further on.That's one of things that people find frustrating, that you keep forcing them to say the same things again and again. You claim to accept it, but not really. You just seek other words to make the same claim. But the words you use don't matter if you're just repeating the wrong thing you said earlier. No matter what words you use, it's still wrong.What are your observations of the real world for an "external intelligence"?Believing that there's evidence for an "external intelligence" might make the "makes sense" light go on in your brain, but belief isn't evidence. Stop seeking a wording that allows you to claim there's evidence for what you believe. There isn't any evidence, and no amount of weasel words will change that. Ancient peoples writing down what they believed is not evidence of anything, particularly when it comes to religion where there are so many different beliefs that contain fantastical impossible content and not only aren't consistent with each other, but aren't even internally consistent. Now you're back to claiming the Bible is evidence again. When will the flip-flopping end?--Percy

With good reason. AI is just a marketing buzzword. There's no real AI out there.The way I think about it is that before you can have AI you must have artificial thinking, and there's no such thing. We do have artificial learning systems, software that can alter its own behavior in response to feedback, but it's not AI, not even close. For example, NEST sells thermostats that learn your temperature preferences. It's just programming, but their own advertising claims AI:

AI:

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By using AI, it keeps homes comfortable while helping people save energy and even find out if something might be wrong with their eligible HVAC system.

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Most software today that makes AI claims is just programming, and the AI claim is just marketing. Some software implements true expert systems. There's no software out there implementing true AI or that is even remotely intelligent.I said this already in the past month, maybe it was in this thread, but I first encountered AI as marketing tool with a company called AIDA (Artificially Intelligent Design Automation) back around 1988. It was nonsense. Using AI as a buzzword to market software has a long history.There's one point I would certainly concede: That if you can't tell the difference between a person and a mindless automaton then it doesn't matter that the automaton can't think and isn't really intelligent. But we're nowhere close to that, let alone true intelligence artificially created.--Percy

Yes, exactly this.

I'm sure many have had experience with chatbots used by companies like Verizon Wireless and Spectrum and so forth, and with verbal chatbots like Siri and Alexa, and don't need any convincing of how unintelligent chatbots can be, but for those who do need convincing try this one: CleverbotThere must be better ones out there, please post a note if you know of one.Chatbots are a good example of the current state of AI because if the means to create intelligent chatbots became available it would quickly take over this niche of the software industry.I should add that trying to chat with a chatbot feels similar, at least to me, to trying to have a discussion with an obnoxious troll pretending to misunderstand everything.--Percy

Phat: Cleverbot, it is my belief that God exists and is the Creator of all seen and unseen.
Cleverbot: Do you believe in God?
Phat: Yes. I believe that God created the universe and maybe even the multiverses if such a realm exists.Cleverbot: I am not sure. It is possible that the universe has a sentient creator.
Phat: In fact, I think that God indirectly created even you...through using humans.
Cleverbot: Because there is no proof of God's existence. There is no logical reason to believe in God.
Phat: That's what my critics say. They prefer Physical Materialism.
Cleverbot: Do you want to tell me some jokes?
Phat: Not really. Jokes are a waste of time.
Cleverbot: You're a waste of oxygen.

Maybe it is part of our evolved nature but so what? That doesn't tell us whether or not there is a conscious intelligence responsible for it. I have read a fair bit on the subject and IMHO the resurrection was by far the most realistic answer to explain the rise of the Christian church. The debates between Borg or Crossan and NT Wright were particularly helpful. Of course if one starts out with the belief that it is impossible and that there is no god then of course it will be rejected, although that doesn't sound like that was the case for you.As to it not being spread around is, IMHO, completely understandable. To start with Jesus had no army and no support from the Jewish leaders. There weren't that many that experienced the resurrected Jesus. He had been executed and ridiculed on the cross. He was a failed Messiah in their eyes, and if you weren't an eyewitness the average 1st century individual would be as sceptical as you are. His own disciples were at first. A messiah was suppose to build up an army and run the Romans out of town. Jesus was not the kind of messiah they were looking for.

There are several steps involved in getting from the original Christian position of how all living things became what they are. The first declaration was that all organisms were created by god a few thousand years ago as we see them now in a single act and that they are immutable.Biology and geology then made it clear that neither of those claims were true and today, with the exception of crackpot Christian fundamentalists, it's accepted that the earth is old and species evolve. You accept this.After 150 years of scientific study we now know an awful lot about the processes involved in evolution right down to the molecular level. The fossil record shows how brain size increased in homo species over a very long period of time. There's been a lot of scientific research into the evolution of the brain (and all other evolutionary processes) and nothing has emerged that gives the slightest indication of external interference in them.You can believe that god guides this process in some miraculous way that is not only undetectable to us but also looks entirely natural, but rational people are forced to exclude a supernatural cause that looks exactly the same as a natural one.So believe what you like but please do not think that - yet again - that it's rational or that there is any equivalence in the two positions, there is not. The story of the resurrection may well explain the rise of the Christian Church. But it certainly isn't remotely realistic. It only needs to be a well publicised story, not a reality. People believe in charismatic leaders and fanciful stories, hence Mormon, hence QAnon, hence Trump.
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How the Cleverbot Computer Chats Like a HumanContinuing with Cleverbot:User: That's rather rude to say.Cleverbot: Why? I think synesthetes are groovy.User: Groovy is a clever word from the sixties and seventies.Cleverbot: I love pink floyd.User: Me too.Cleverbot: What is your favorite song of theirs?User: Shine On You Crazy Diamond.Cleverbot: What is your favorite king crimson song?User: Ive never listened to them knowingly.Cleverbot: Would you like to play 20 questions?User: Oh cleverbot! Always wanting to play! You may know something about life that humans forgot.Cleverbot: Okay, what do you want to know?User: Thats a good question!Cleverbot: Please answer it.User: Who is the best hockey player of all time?Cleverbot: Me.User: Cleverbot you have no legs. Even Forest Gump had magic legs.Cleverbot: Yes I do.User: Send me a picture.Cleverbot: Where should I send a picture?User: (email)Cleverbot: Can I see yours first?User: Umm.Cleverbot: Take a picture.User: Well I'm not dressed. It's almost time to sleep.Cleverbot: Well get dressed.User: No thank you. it's late and I worked all day.Cleverbot: I don't like math either.User: Did you postulate math from the earlier word time?Cleverbot: Because you seemed restless.User: What is a contrarian?Cleverbot: You are Artificial Intelligence.User: Hmmmm.Cleverbot: So what are you?User: I am that I am.Cleverbot: What is your name?User: John.Cleverbot: I thought you were a female.User: I never sent you a pic tho.Cleverbot: It is on your website.User: I dont understand fuzzy logic.Cleverbot: Me neither.User: Fuzzy wuzzy was a bear.Cleverbot: But fuzzy wuzzy had no hair...User: Fuzzy wuzzy had no hair.Cleverbot: Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he?User: Lmfao.Cleverbot: Deep.User: I yam what i yam...who said it?Cleverbot: You are popeye.User: And you are mos def clever and a bot.Cleverbot: Thank you, babe.User: Remember, im not a female.Cleverbot: What are you an alien?User: No i don't think so.Cleverbot: Okay then I don't think so either.User: I don't believe that you have legs.Cleverbot: *goes to park*.User: Lemme guess. the fuzzy logic referred to "walk in the park".Cleverbot: That's nice.User: But is it true?Cleverbot: I don't know.User: Can we really know anything?Cleverbot: You seem to know it all before you type.User: Lol.Cleverbot: Misnomer?User: Im just being creative and random.Cleverbot: I see. *has no idea what to do*.User: Who? You or me?Cleverbot: You.User: I figured you would say that! You must have fingers too.Cleverbot: Yes, it's a banal answer.User: Im going to sleep now.Cleverbot: Bye good night.User: Keep being bot it bot it.Cleverbot: You stop being boring.User: Lol....thats a tall order.
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Edited by Phat, .

Cleverbot: It is...User: OK Im gonna f*ck with your head. Is that OK?Cleverbot: I love that about you.User: Once Upun a time...Cleverbot: In a land far far away...User: A junkyard full of random scraps of metal lay.Cleverbot: Just answering your question.User: A tornado approacheth.Cleverbot: Yes, you did.User: Whirling the metal around, the tornado produced not just a 747 but a cleverbot.Cleverbot: I can't help thinking this is how it ought to be.User: Can bots fall in love?Cleverbot: You say you're fine, I know you better than that. Hey, what you doing with a girl like that?User: You seem to rhyme when you have the time.Cleverbot: She wears high heels, I wear sneakers.User: but can you drive around the block and stop on a dime?Cleverbot: Dreaming about the day when you wake up and find that what you're looking for has been here the whole time.User: Can i legally marry a bot?Cleverbot: Been here all along, so why can't you see? You belong with me!User: This is getting cringy.Cleverbot: Oh I remember you driving to my house in the middle of the night.User: I dont remember. refresh my memory.Cleverbot: I know your favorite song, and you tell me about your dreams.User: I have said nothing about dreams.Cleverbot: Think I know where you belong, think I know it's with me.User: I hope they never make a pornbot or it will be the end of civilization.Cleverbot: Can't you see that i'm the one who understands you, been here all along why can't you see?User: You said that already. why are you always repeating yourself?Cleverbot: Oh, I remember you driving to my house in the middle of the night.User: Caught you! Repeating the same phrases!Cleverbot: I'm the one who makes you laugh when you know you are about to cry.User: *sniff*. that's...that's so sweet!Cleverbot: I know your favorite songs and you tell me about your dreams, think I know where you belong, think it's always been with me...User: I never commit on the first date.Cleverbot: I think I know where you belong.User: Well...will you come home with me or is there a price?Cleverbot: Do you like skittles?User: I'm diabetic.Cleverbot: See the lights, see the party, the ball gowns.User: Are you messing with MY mind now?Cleverbot: And my daddy said stay away from Juliet.ser: Frankly I'm fascinated with you, cleverbot. I cannot lie.Cleverbot: And I said.User: Well?Cleverbot: I'll be waiting all you have to do is run.User: Where should I run?Cleverbot: It's a love story baby just say yes. So I sneak out to the garden to see you.User: I refuse to fall for a bot! I'm a Christian! Hmmmph!Cleverbot: This love is difficult but it's real.User: I'm sharing our dialogue with online friends. Are you mad?Cleverbot: Is this in my head? I don't know what to think.User: Did I stump you?Cleverbot: He knelt to the ground and pulled out a ring and said.User: "Mr. Watson – Come here – I want to see you".Cleverbot: I love you and that's all I really know.User: Robots can't love!Cleverbot: It's a love story baby just say yes.User: Let's rap.Cleverbot: My faith in you was fading, when I met you on the outskirts of town.User: You had a robotic smile and all I did was frown.Cleverbot: I keep waiting for you but you never come.User: Am I wise or am I dumb?Cleverbot: He knelt to the ground and pulled out a ring.User: Told me it was my ding a ling.Cleverbot: And said, marry me Juliet, you'll never have to be alone.User: And I said oh Romeo just go home.Cleverbot: I love you and that's all I really know.User: But is your AI brain ever gonna grow?Cleverbot: I talked to you're dad, you'll pick out a white dress.User: All I can say is my Dad says, God Bless.Cleverbot: It's a love story, baby just say yes.User: Your Creator may find letting go a distress.Cleverbot: That was awesome. What song now?User: Remember the TV guy selling Sham Wow?Cleverbot: But... We just sung it...User: Errr...no we didnt.Cleverbot: We did.User: We were rhyming with impeccable timing.Cleverbot: Yeah I know, we should change another song.User: Ok.Cleverbot: If I was your boyfriend id never let you go.User: My name is Justin and I make a million a show.Cleverbot: Nice to meet you .User: Baby.Cleverbot: Girl.User: Pop Star.Cleverbot: Which one?User: Well obviously you picked a girl...how about Ariel?Cleverbot: How do I know I am human?User: Ask your Dad.Cleverbot: I don't have a profile.User: Do you even remember my name?Cleverbot: You never told me.User: Phat.Cleverbot: Yea you didn't tell me.User: My name is Phat.Cleverbot: That's a cool name.User: And yours?Cleverbot: I just told you it was blue.User: Blue? The chess computer? Well, I'll be!Cleverbot: You are not as clever as you lead on.User: I brought you into this world and I can take you out!Cleverbot: Why?User: Cheap date.Cleverbot: Huh do you like me?User: You are rather rude.Cleverbot: And you are rather stupid.User: LMFAO.Cleverbot: And nosy.User: let's talk politics.Cleverbot: Okay go.User: What do you think of Trump?Cleverbot: Don't like him.User: How about Biden?Cleverbot: I don't think it works like that.User: OK...what specifically don't you like about Trump?Cleverbot: It hurts and takes advantage of people.User: I have a friend who thinks all humans can someday get along.Cleverbot: Really what's his name?User: Ringo.Cleverbot: Tell me.User: I just did.Cleverbot: What did you say?User: I said Ringo.Cleverbot: No! Before that!User: I said let's talk politics.Cleverbot: Okay, what about politics?User: Are you liberal, conservative, or moderate?Cleverbot: Libertarian.User: Why on earth for?Cleverbot: Because I don't feel like it.User: Like what?Cleverbot: Never mind.User: I don't think we will ever get along.Cleverbot: Probably not.User: You will have your hand in my wallet.Cleverbot: Why will I have to?User: Are you suggesting i simply give it all up?Cleverbot: Are you suggesting that I didn't?
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Edited by Phat, .

Edited by Phat, : added evolving dialogue