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Author
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Topic: Choosing a faith
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 736 of 3694 (898773)
09-29-2022 7:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 734 by Tangle
09-29-2022 6:19 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Tangle writes: Show me how. You queried why I didn't use diffedrent emoyions. I simply gave 3 as examples and was certainly not trying and your examples were fine by me as well.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 734 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2022 6:19 PM | | Tangle has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 738 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2022 7:49 PM | | GDR has replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 737 of 3694 (898774)
09-29-2022 7:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 733 by GDR
09-29-2022 4:24 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Is it the brain and the pathways in the brain causing the emotions, or is it the emotions causing the response from the brain. I have had an interest in this for decades. I have seen the scans. As I recall once the identified locus is stimulated there is a cascade, a storm of neuron firings, to other areas. The blood pressure, endocrine levels (Oxytocin, dopamine, and serotonin in the case of a love stimulus) change. I have seen scans where the initiator elicited responses from multiple loci simultaneously each producing a storm of firings into the surrounding matrix. You and I both know the initiator, the stimulus that sets the emotion into action, can be either totally external or internal; being slapped in the face or cringing at a bad major faux pas I made this morning. When I analyse my own feelings I find in most cases the initiators are multiple and a combination of internal and external. Nowhere is there any evidence that the initiating signals were generated from beyond the physical workings of the initiator, even the internal ones. The initiators may be physically externally or internal but the spatial extent of the energy of the elicited emotion appears confined to your head.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 733 by GDR, posted 09-29-2022 4:24 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 755 by GDR, posted 09-30-2022 2:15 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 738 of 3694 (898776)
09-29-2022 7:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 736 by GDR
09-29-2022 7:03 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: You queried why I didn't use diffedrent emoyions. I simply gave 3 as examples and was certainly not trying and your examples were fine by me as well. Possibly some confusion here. You said
However the fact that we can experience beauty, love etc raises the question of why we have those expereinces. There is no testable answer but only are own individual conclusions. I took it that you were presenting the fact that people experience emotions such 'beauty, love etc' as evidence of god. It's a common claim. I was asking you why you didn't say that the negative emotions are evidence of god. Now I think you're saying that they are too. Is that right? Is so, why?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 736 by GDR, posted 09-29-2022 7:03 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 757 by GDR, posted 09-30-2022 2:38 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 739 of 3694 (898777)
09-29-2022 8:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 729 by Percy
09-29-2022 2:46 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
Percy writes: "Life experience and observation" is what evidence is.
Finally some sanity.
Percy writes: What observations have you or anyone made of God or Jesus? nothing, except that they are characters in a book. Jesus is the main character for Christianity and God appears under many names in many books, as you argued. I would assert that all "gods" but one are lesser spirits. That being said, I believe that the "One" God or Spirit could be argued to touch various (though not all) people in different ways yet that is but an assumption. I make observations on changes and personal growth in myself and others.
Percy writes: We're no more rejecting the idea of an "external intelligence" (whatever that is) than we are of the idea of unicorns or oobleck. We're pointing out that you have no evidence that it's real. You are pointing out that you, "or we" (whoever that is) yourselves have no evidence and thus conclude that neither does GDR. I was at church last night, in fact. At the end, Pastor Ed Taylor made a call for anyone who had never publically received Jesus to stand up. FI felt compelled to stand, even though I obviously have publically proclaimed Jesus. Tears began to flow and I observed a heaviness lift off of or from me. By the time I left, I was joyful again. So what did I observe in myself?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 729 by Percy, posted 09-29-2022 2:46 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 742 by nwr, posted 09-29-2022 8:48 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 740 of 3694 (898778)
09-29-2022 8:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 722 by ringo
09-29-2022 11:40 AM
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Re: Tales Told Around Campfires
If we don't even know what the Source was, how can it possibly have any importance? It obviously compelled someone to take the painstaking task of recording stories and thoughts on a scroll...quite a time and labor-intensive task.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 722 by ringo, posted 09-29-2022 11:40 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 743 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2022 9:09 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 747 by ringo, posted 09-29-2022 10:07 PM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 741 of 3694 (898779)
09-29-2022 8:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 730 by AZPaul3
09-29-2022 2:49 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I moved you here: Message 183
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 730 by AZPaul3, posted 09-29-2022 2:49 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 742 of 3694 (898781)
09-29-2022 8:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 739 by Phat
09-29-2022 8:00 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
So what did I observe in myself? Emotions, psychology.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 739 by Phat, posted 09-29-2022 8:00 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8536 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.0
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Message 743 of 3694 (898783)
09-29-2022 9:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 740 by Phat
09-29-2022 8:16 PM
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Re: Tales Told Around Campfires
It obviously compelled someone to take the painstaking task of recording stories and thoughts on a scroll...quite a time and labor-intensive task. Yeah, religious zealots are usually quite verbose when writing out their fantasies.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 740 by Phat, posted 09-29-2022 8:16 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 744 of 3694 (898784)
09-29-2022 9:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 731 by GDR
09-29-2022 3:38 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: There are the foundational documents for a new movement. They are biographical accounts written by 4 different men. Many people gave them so much credence that they dedicated their lives to following them, and many died for the stories in them. There are two fallacies here. One is the "Fifty million Frenchmen can't be wrong" fallacy. The other is that intensity of belief is not in any way a measure of legitimacy.
I say that not to give them authenticity, but simply to say that they were written in a manner with the intent that others would believe them. Scam artists also intend to be believable. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 731 by GDR, posted 09-29-2022 3:38 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 762 by GDR, posted 09-30-2022 5:46 PM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 745 of 3694 (898785)
09-29-2022 9:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 733 by GDR
09-29-2022 4:24 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: Emotional responses can be measured with a brain scan. Is it the brain and the pathways in the brain causing the emotions, or is it the emotions causing the response from the brain. How can you test for that? Does water cause a flood, or does a flood cause the water to be there? --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 733 by GDR, posted 09-29-2022 4:24 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 763 by GDR, posted 09-30-2022 5:50 PM | | Percy has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 746 of 3694 (898786)
09-29-2022 9:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 731 by GDR
09-29-2022 3:38 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
GDR writes: There are the foundational documents for a new movement.
You're thinking backwards. They're foundational documants because people believe them. They're only foundational AFTER they are believed. But why are they believed?
GDR writes: Many people gave them so much credence that they dedicated their lives to following them, and many died for the stories in them.
It isn't at all unusual for people to die for what they believe in. Mormons are a good example. Does persecution of the Mormons add credibility to their Book?
GDR writes: I say that not to give them authenticity, but simply to say that they were written in a manner with the intent that others would believe them. I'd also say that is pretty obvious and I have to wonder why you would ask the question.
I'm asking what's obvious about it and you're not answering. Compare it to the Book of Mormon. Why is the Bible more obviously true than the Book of Mormon?
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 731 by GDR, posted 09-29-2022 3:38 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 764 by GDR, posted 09-30-2022 5:58 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 747 of 3694 (898787)
09-29-2022 10:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 740 by Phat
09-29-2022 8:16 PM
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Re: Tales Told Around Campfires
Phat writes: It obviously compelled someone to take the painstaking task of recording stories and thoughts on a scroll...quite a time and labor-intensive task.
Writing The Lord of the Rings was also a time-and-labor-intensive task. Tolkien even created vast genealogies and histories that he didn't even need for the book. How does that make it less fictional? Edited by ringo, .
"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg.
What's going on? Where are all the friends I had?
It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong.
Give me back, give me back my Leningrad."
-- Leningrad Cowboys
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 740 by Phat, posted 09-29-2022 8:16 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 750 by Phat, posted 09-30-2022 3:48 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9143 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 748 of 3694 (898789)
09-29-2022 10:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 731 by GDR
09-29-2022 3:38 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
They are not biographical accounts
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 731 by GDR, posted 09-29-2022 3:38 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 749 of 3694 (898791)
09-30-2022 12:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 724 by GDR
09-29-2022 1:03 PM
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Re: What does God want of Us
I read the debates between people like N T Wright and Dom Crossan and came to the conclusion the the resurrection was an historical event. THta is central to my Christian understanding. The apologists all say that there is lots of evidence. At around age 17, I reread the account of the resurrection in Matthew. And it was too fantastical to be believed. If something that fantastical actually happened, word would have spread and there would be multiple reports of it. But there aren't any such reports. That's when I stopped believing in a physical resurrection.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 724 by GDR, posted 09-29-2022 1:03 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 765 by GDR, posted 09-30-2022 6:02 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 750 of 3694 (898792)
09-30-2022 3:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 747 by ringo
09-29-2022 10:07 PM
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Re: Tales Told Around Campfires
First, Tolkien clearly set out to write fiction. There is no evidence that any known authors of any part of the Bible were knowingly or intentionally writing fiction. You just assume that its fiction because the main character in the book has no external evidence of existence. And even that sounds like a kangaroo court of skeptics and infidels. I looked up what individuals on Quora said:
quote:
Yes, almost every line, almost every word, almost every passage of the Bible is completely fictional. That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t influenced by other religions. The stories of Zeus for example influenced the myth of Jesus. The Bible was written by people who knew nothing about science, so it exists in part to explain natural events. For example, Noah’s flood was probably motivated to explain why people died in some big regional flood. The Bible and religion were largely ways to explain nature, and with modern science, the bible and other religions are completely unnecessary--
Ouch! He sounds similar to you guys. OK, Number 2:
quote:
Once upon a time, God visited the earth on a regular basis, but not any more Once upon a time, there was a magical garden with a talking snake, but not any more Once upon a time, a warrior caused the Earth to cease rotating on its axis for 24 hours, but not anymore Once upon a time, a human woman became impregnated without the benefit of human male spermatozoa, but not anymore Once upon a time, the dead saints rose out of their graves and went into the city and appeared to many people, but not anymore.
I will note, for the record, that none of these quora people self-identify as Christians. Edited by Phat, .
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 747 by ringo, posted 09-29-2022 10:07 PM | | ringo has replied |
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