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Junior Member (Idle past 779 days) Posts: 5 From: Austin Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Is ID falsifiable by any kind of experiment? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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evolution_noob writes:
If some super-entity can violate the laws of physics willy-nilly, then we can't know anything. If it can change the length of a day, we can't predict when tomorrow will come. If it can suspend the law of gravity, there's no sense in us building bridges.
Why couldn't the ID proponent just claim that the designer guided the experiment psychically? evolution_noob writes:
We don't need to rule it out any more than we need to rule out the activities of unicorns or leprechauns. As long as the universe is predictable, their activities are irrelevant. How can we rule out the activity of a designer when there are no limits on how this designer operates?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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WookieeB writes:
Circular. AZPaul3 writes:
A purposeful arrangement of parts. What criteria would qualify as something falling under design? Now you need to define what "purposeful" means - and how you would distinguish purposeful from purposeless. What is the purpose of a mountain? Was it designed to direct the weather?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Tanypteryx writes:
And water was designed for swimming. Notice how it fits around you so snugly. The Designer must have known what shape you would be. Mountains are obviously designed for skiing."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
WookieeB writes:
You define a vague concept, "design", with another vague concept, "purpose".
ringo writes:
LOL, how? Circular. WookieeB writes:
How do you distinguish something that is purposeful from someting that is not purposeful?
1) having intention or objective2) conforms to an independently describable pattern and whose arrangement is of a sufficiently low probability. WookieeB writes:
So you're defining purposeless as not purposeful. That's a little thin, isn't it? For the latter, i suppose not conforming to the description above. Tell us what the steps are. How, specifically, do you decide that A is purposeful and B is purposeless?"Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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WookieeB writes:
Vague to vague to vague is circular.
Vague doesn't mean circular, WookieeB writes:
So stop weaseling and be rigorous NOW. Define "design" and "purpose" with all the rigor that you can muster.
There was no demand for additional rigor in an answer based on the question. WookieeB writes:
I don't like your copypasta either. If you want to promote Intelligent Design, you need to show that you understand the definitions. You have given no such indication. What you have done is the typical IDist weaseling.
You asked for definitions. I gave you definitions. You dont like mine? Fine. WookieeB writes:
How do you do that? Probability is math. Show us your calculations.
ringo writes:
Observe; gather data; analyze the item/event. Estimate the relative likelyhood (probability) of the particular arrangement AND identify if it corresponds to some independent pattern. How, specifically, do you decide that A is purposeful and B is purposeless? WookieeB writes:
How do you determine the threshold of probability? I would suggest that any non-zero probability eliminates the need to postulate a designer. If both the probability is low and there is a pattern detected, then we can infer purpose."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
WookieeB writes:
I asked you to to be rigorous: "Define "design" and "purpose" with all the rigor that you can muster."
There is no obligation to explain more than is asked. WookieeB writes:
And you think that isn't circular?
Design - purpose, planning, or intention that exists or is thought to exist behind an action, fact, or material object. See there..."purpose" is used as part of the definition. So if you need to know what "purpose" is, look behind. WookieeB writes:
I have a problem with schoolboy definitions. I asked you for rigor but apparently you don't have any.
If you dont like that, then you have a problem with definitions. WookieeB writes:
Of course I can - but I'm trying to determine what YOU know.
You want more variety, you can google the words yourself. WookieeB writes:
Not even close. If you're trying to overturn all of science and replace it with voodoo, you need to convince US that you know something.
My definitions for those words are sufficient. WookieeB writes:
I asked, "How, specifically, do you decide that A is purposeful and B is purposeless?" What does your calculation tell us about purpose?
"A" and "B" both correspond to an independent pattern distinct from the question - that pattern being the English alphabet. They are also both the first and second characters of the alphabet, both showing as uppercase letters, and they are displayed per a possible search space of the UTF-8 (1 byte only which handles all the ASCII characters) encoding on the EvC forums. So these are 2x very specific entries from a 128 character list, which would be a probability of 1 in (128^2), which works out to 6.10 x 10^-5. (Based upon the rules, I could have defaulted to all of the UTF-8 available codepoints, which is what the website is encoded with, and allows 1,112,064 'valid' character codes (and feasibly up to over 2 million if allowing for the invalid codes). WookieeB writes:
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. If you talk about probabilities, you need to provide numbers. Solid numbers. So while exploring for numbers to plug into some of these questions is fun (and tedious), it is really not necessary. Common sense much more likely points to them being purposeful entries."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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WookieeB writes:
So dictionary definitions and synonyms are all the rigor you can muster?
Here are a number of other synonyms for "Design"... WookieeB writes:
No. Enough rigor? When I was in elementary school, there was no Internet. Computers filled whole rooms and cost millions of dollars. The first calculator I ever saw, two years after high school, could add, subtract, multiply and divide and cost more than $100. We had encyclopedias. They were our basic research tool. But our teachers told us not to copy from the encyclopedia, to put it in our own words. That would demonstrate that we understood the topic. So, when I ask you for a definition, I'm not asking you to copy/paste something that took you three seconds to copy off the Internet. I'm asking you to explain it in your own words, to demonstrate that you understand it.
WookieeB writes:
Circular is using "designed" to define "purposeful" and using 'purposeful" to define "designed".
Define circular. WookieeB writes:
Intelligent design is trying to overturn science. Defending Intelligent Design is trying to overturn science.
I never said I was trying to overturn science. WookieeB writes:
I would say that YOU are the one who is too lazy to put any thought into what design and purpose are. If I have not been clear, go ahead and ask me questions.
Now at this point, if you still don't like it, you are either lazy, too stupid to understand basic language, or are incapable of being clear in your requests. WookieeB writes:
You're the one who doesn't seem to be paying attention. I said, "How, specifically, do you decide that A is purposeful and B is purposeless?" You don't seem to be paying attention. I think someone should wave a hand over your head. "A" and "B" seem to be purposeful. I'm asking how you decide that one thing is purposeful and another is not. (A am NOT talking about the letters "A" and "B", by the way.)
WookieeB writes:
I don't see the point, but just to demonstrate that I'm trying to discuss in good faith, I'm looking at: If you are willing, describe or name 5 things that are in the room where you are reading this post1. A computer. 2. Shelves of books. (I'm in a library.) 3. Chairs. 4. A fire extinguisher. 5. A clock. I'm guessing we'll agree that they all have purpose and they were all designed."Oh no, They've gone and named my home St. Petersburg. What's going on? Where are all the friends I had? It's all wrong, I'm feeling lost like I just don't belong. Give me back, give me back my Leningrad." -- Leningrad Cowboys
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
WookieeB writes:
Stop being so legalistic. We're trying to have a discussion here.
I gave sufficient and satisfactory definitions of all those words. And that is all you asked for - definitions. WookieeB writes:
It's supposed to be a DISCUSSION. Arguments are all that matters.
You didn't ask for arguments relating to some other idea. WookieeB writes:
Nonsense. That's the first step in any discussion.
There should be no call for me to write an essay as to the meaning of the words design, purpose, and purposeless when simple dictionary definitions suffice. WookieeB writes:
Because they do not agree with your claims of ID.
My meaning of those words is the same as the many dictionary references I made. Why do they have to be more? WookieeB writes:
The point is that you CAN'T define "purpose" in the context of ID. And you support that statement by your inability to define it. In the context of ID, the "purpose" of something would be the "designer's" purpose. And you claim to not be defining who the designer is. So how could you possibly know the purpose of an undefined designer? Why don’t you give an example of an acceptable answer for one of those. How would you define “purpose”? Unless you're willing to have an actual discussion, you can stop wasting my time.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
WookieeB writes:
That's my point. Instead of answering the letter of the question, answer the spirit of the question.
ringo writes:
I have answered the question with the format that it was asked in. Stop being so legalistic. We're trying to have a discussion here. WookieeB writes:
And you claim you provided definitions, so YOU are ready to move on to the discussion even if I am not. So move on.
You didn't ask for arguments; you asked for definitions. WookieeB writes:
If you HAVE any arguments, why are you so reluctant to present them? You're wasting all of your time on meta-discussion ABOUT discussion. Get on with the discussion; present your arguments.
hen perhaps you should look up the definition of “DISCUSSION”. Because a discussion does not necessarily mean presenting arguments. WookieeB writes:
That's entirely possible. If I have missed anything, feel free to re-post. Besides, I did give arguments too. But you seemed to have skipped over them. Of course, the other possibility is that you skipped over my rebuttal(s). You might want to check for beams in your eyes.
WookieeB writes:
Um... ALL of them. How could we possibly discuss Flerbend if I don't define what I mean by flerbend?
Show me a “discussion” where the interlocutors are laying out essays on definitions of various words before they start getting to the meat of the discussion. WookieeB writes:
Clearly not. The same meaning for those words is implied whether I’m talking about ID or whether I’m talking about a computer program or a painting or a dog whining at the door or anything else where those words are appropriate. A computer program definitely has a designer. A painting usually has a designer. A dog DOES NOT have an obvious designer. That's why we have to be very clear about what design IS. So how do you determine what IS designed and what is NOT designed? Edited by ringo, : Spellinge. Edited by ringo, : Punctuation? Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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MrIntelligentDesign writes:
You have that backwards. There is no evidence of that intelligence or intention. You might as well say that there is no evidence that airplanes can fly without angels blowing on the wings. There are no test nor evidences that "incremental change in an organic structure can build a more complex organic structure", without guided by intelligence, or intention,Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
All that is needed to conclude (tentatively) that there is no intelligence or intent involved is a lack of evidence that there is an intelligence or intent involved. Science doesn't have to "prove" a negative. A negative is negative until it is demonstrated to be positive.
Before any sane scientist could claim that a change is not-intentional or no intelligence involved... MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Intelligence and intent are not an "opposing extreme". They're empty speculation. Scientists are in no way obligated to take every hare-brained idea into account.
... that sane scientist must have criteria and numerical dividing lines or numerical limits between the two opposing extremes. MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Those "criteria" are a figment of your imagination. And your conclusion is a non sequitur. Evolution is right, regardless of what scientists or anybody else thinks about it. Nobody can make evolution wrong by having wrong ideas about it.
Evolution, Darwin and supporters of Evolution have no criteria for the two, thus, Evolution is wrong. MrIntelligentDesign writes:
It's your made-up "criteria" that are stupid. Thus, we can easily conclude that Evolution is an stupid theory, since stupid theory will always conclude without any criteria.Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
You seem to have missed the bus. IDists accept evolution. They admit that the evidence points to evolution. Their idea is that an intelligence initiated and/or guides the process. Once again, there are no evidences for Evolution. IDists are creationists who failed to discredit evolution. You're no IDist. You're just another creationist denier.
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
Ask a real IDist. Give me one evidence for Evolution that support....Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
MrIntelligentDesign writes:
That ship has sailed. Evolution won that debate more than a century ago - and it's still racking up points today. Reality is with us, let us talk reality in Biology and in biological world, and see who wins. Edited by ringo, . Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
MrIntelligentDesin writes:
Google doesn't even want to search for "Biological Interrelation". It wants to search for "biological interaction", which is a real thing. If I insist on searching for "biological interrelation", it comes up with ONE book, Sayonara Theory of Evolution, Hello Biological Interrelation. The author, Edgar A. Postrado, seems to be a civil engineer - not a biologist. Now, Evolution has already a counter theory that will surely blow Evolution to pieces, it is called Biological Interrelation You seem to be a very, very, very long way from anything resembling a replacement for the ToE. Edited by ringo, : Moved laughter. Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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ringo Member (Idle past 663 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
In this specific context, it is impeding people from accepting reality (by definition, a mental illness). You recognize seeing pink elephants as a mental illness; why don't you recognize the inability to see elephants as the same illness? Define impediment, by the way. What specifically is belief in a higher power doing to our precious little human minds??Come all of you cowboys all over this land, I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command: To hold a six shooter, and never to run As long as there's bullets in both of your guns. -- Woody Guthrie
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