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Author | Topic: Atheists: Time to Come Out of the Closet! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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An opinion piece in today's Washington Post: America doesn’t need more God. It needs more atheists.
This particular piece isn't behind a paywall. Anyone can access it. It is a *long* read, but well worth it. I don't think the atheists here need the provided advice, namely to be clear and open about your atheism, but I can't take this advice because I'm not an atheist. The article says to ask yourself, "Do I think a supernatural being is in charge of the universe?" If the answer is "no" then you're an atheist. For me the answer is "yes." I qualify the question in my mind a bit. I believe someone or something is in charge of the universe. It isn't a requirement for me that this someone or something be supernatural. I still think that means I'm not an atheist. Is this someone or something God? I guess it is in my mind, because that's the name I use. But I am aligned with all atheists because I don't believe any of the world's religions have the slightest inkling about the nature of God. Certainly everything in all the world's religious books is myth, though with plenty of useful observations and lessons about human nature and the nature of the world, and with some useful history sometimes mixed in. I've probably said this before, but all you people who turn away the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who come to your door, fear not. Invite them in and engage them in conversation. They're on a schedule and will only stay 15 or 20 minutes. The exchange of ideas in person is invigorating and much different than interactions online. Whenever it comes up whether I believe in God, which it occasionally does, I always answer yes, and if the circumstances are appropriate I add that I don't belong to any of the world's religions, that I have my own beliefs that are still vague and unformed. If I'm feeling especially bold I might add that I don't think I really know anything about the nature of God. This answer always seems to satisfy everyone, or at least no one speaks up, though admittedly I live in a part of the country that tends liberal. Such an answer might not go unremarked in the Bible Belt. For those who choose not to read the article, here are a few choice excerpts:
Washington Post: --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Phat writes: ...yet in order to save the planet, the progressives will almost certainly have to seize the power to do the job that the conservatives won't. I guess the progressives will seize power using the guns and civilian militias that they don't have. Concerning climate change, one possibility is that the conservatives will have little problem consolidating and increasing their control over the country by advocating increasingly authoritarian solutions to the worsening problems created by climate change while ignoring the actual root causes of climate change, like the fossil fuels that contribute 75% of global greenhouse gas emissions and 90% of carbon dioxide emissions. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Phat writes: Percy writes: Phat in Message 5 writes: ...yet in order to save the planet, the progressives will almost certainly have to seize the power to do the job that the conservatives won't. I guess the progressives will seize power using the guns and civilian militias that they don't have. No. they have different methods, such as increasing taxes for the good of everyone all the while throwing money at a war that cannot be won. (Ignoring using more money at home) How does this make any sense?
All I can say is that we made a big mistake in signaling to Saudi Arabia that the petrodollar days are over. That's the whole backing for our money since gold no longer is. You can't simply back money through the will of the majority. A lesson that atheists have yet to learn. Even BRICS is smarter than that. (Sorry I'm drifting off-topic) More like you've drifted off the planet. I didn't address your actual comments because this thread's about atheism. I was just calling attention to the absurdity of liberals "seizing power" given their antipathy toward firearms and vigilantism. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Often incorrectly attributed to Lincoln or Twain, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Phat writes: Many atheists have the heart of Jesus, though they reject religion. Why do you continue to misstate atheists' attitude toward religion? Like most people you probably don't play tiddlywinks. Does that mean you reject tiddlywinks? No, not at all. In all likelihood you probably haven't thought of tiddlywinks in years. Most atheists have the same attitude toward religion. It's not that they're rejecting it. It's that they aren't even thinking about it, with the exception of when it's shoved in their face, which probably happens a lot given that religion is ubiquitous - unlike tiddlywinks. Gotta go - the Jehovah's Witnesses are at the front door. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Phat writes: My God is living and active. Your God is an absentee Father.
I am delusional at times. You have a gift for understatement. And don't forget irrational. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Dredge writes: Tangle writes: You're all bonkers. If atheists are correct and this life is all there is, then nothing matters, bcoz life is meaningless - so it doesn't matter if all religion is bonkers. This is interesting. You don't refer to the sky daddy but to the afterlife. For you it is the afterlife that gives life meaning. How so? I'm like Tangle. This life is all there is and I try to live it in such a way as to produce the most joy possible. Since I do pretty much the same things that everyone else does (except the religious related stuff), evidently believers and non-believers alike come to the same conclusions about how life should be lived.
It doesn't matter what humans do or think or believe or feel or experience - they're just bags of chemicals whose existence is as meaningless as a bag of mud. Whether there's an afterlife or not doesn't change the fact that we're still just "bags of chemicals." What does an afterlife do for you that gives your particular "bag of chemicals" meaning? Do you believe judgment will be rendered after you've passed from this mortal plane, and then you'll know the meaning of your life? Or do you think you just pass from one plane of existence to another, leaving unanswered the question of how this confers meaning upon your life?
Most atheists lack the courage to face up to this fact - going so far as to deny it - but that doesn't matter either. I'm not an atheist, I do believe in God, but I also believe all the world's religions have it hopelessly wrong because, lacking evidence, they make it up. My belief in God springs from faith and involves no evidence. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Dredge writes: Atheism means a human being is just a bag of chemicals that's here today and gone tomorrow - there's no meaning in that; chemicals don't have meaning. I don't think anything can alter the fact that a human being is, in your words, "just a bag of chemicals." It is the people in our lives that lend meaning. Their personal beliefs about God don't matter unless we decide it matters. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Dredge writes: Percy writes: This is interesting. You don't refer to the sky daddy but to the afterlife. For you it is the afterlife that gives life meaning. How so? If God said to me, "I'll give you 80 years of life, but that's all. There is no after-life", I would consider that 80 years of life just as meaningless as if there were no God at all. A finite life is meaningless; life has meaning only if it's eternal. I believe that it is people who give life meaning. The meaning we give to our own and other lives proliferates forward through the generations and never dies.
I'm like Tangle. This life is all there is ... I'm not an atheist. I do believe in God You believe in God but also believe that this life is all there is? Huh? What's the point of believing in God if there's no after-life? My belief in God springs from faith, not from any associated benefits such as an afterlife or salvation.
My belief in God springs from faith and involves no evidence. If this life is all there is, your faith in God is as pointless and meaningless as the rest of your life. It feels as if for you there's a reward involved for belief in God, namely an afterlife. For me God just is. I know nothing about him, not even if he's aware of our existence, but I do believe the universe has meaning which we are unlikely to ever know. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Typo.
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Phat in Message 87 writes: You never considered faith or any type of belief at the adult, rationally-minded level. What is "adult, rationally-minded" about faith, about believing in something without evidence?
Perhaps you are right in that I don't understand atheists or atheism... What's to understand? It isn't complicated. Where's the mystery in not accepting the existence of things that have no evidence, and especially those things about which there is a huge variety of mutually incompatible thought?
I will certainly agree with you in that "believers" in general do not understand atheism. If Tangle said this then I don't agree. I do think that those believers in discussions with atheists are often working very hard at not understanding something very simple that many believers find quite straightforward.
I will call you and AZHater3 out for not only misunderstanding what it means to believe, but ignorantly labeling us as evil lying priests(*cough* AZ *cough*) or as people who are bonkers. The evil part derives from ignoring the history of religion illustrating that the road to hell is lined with good intentions while still thinking that your particular religion is different and that you've found the one, right and true set of beliefs that if only everyone joined you would fill the world with joy and happiness. The most rational thing any believer could say about their religion is that it makes them happy or that it satisfies a need they have. Meanwhile the Middle East is proving once again that nothing motivates murder more efficiently than religion.
For me, anyway being a believer is not refusing to grow up. You do realize, I hope, that this contradicts your earlier comment about "adult, rationally minded" beliefs.
I have as sharp a mind as any of you,... This isn't one of those types of judgments that one makes about oneself. Remember the Dunning-Kruger effect where one's confidence is inversely proportional to one's competence?
My belief was born of individual experience (admittedly often in groups initially) and I will tell you that at worst you could label my belief as confirmation bias. In my opinion, of course you would be wrong. And yes, "it" just happened one day. "It just happened" and "I uncovered evidence" are arguably opposites.
Since that day, I have not become any more evil than I was before. This is another of those types of judgments that one doesn't make about oneself. I'm sure the Hamas members who slaughtered innocent Israeli civilians in cold blood don't believe themselves any more evil than before.
I have not become willfully ignorant;... If anything has changed it isn't your ignorance but your willingness to accept ideas with no evidence, your gullibility.
...on the contrary, I would level the same charge against many of you who not only refuse to consider the possibility that a higher power is real but actively resist such a ludicrous and irrational thought in the very soul of your being. We're awaiting your presentation of evidence that doesn't require us to refuse to "grow up." I'm not scolding you, Tangle. You have made it clear to me many times before that it is unfair in the grand scheme that such an event or opportunity never happened to or presented itself(Himself) to you. Moreover, you dismiss it all as fanciful twaddle. Live and let live. What you described happening to you was all in your head. If it happened anywhere else, show us the evidence. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Dredge writes: APauling666 writes: The universe defines my reality. And yours. Science helps me discern what my reality is. Welcome to the shallow, dishonest mind of the atheist. I don't think unsupported derogatory comments improve the quality of arguments. And especially as the lede they immediately make suspect what follows.
The truth is, puny science can't explain or define reality. Puny science? Between science and religion, which is most responsible for the heat in your home, your indoor plumbing, your hot water, your TV, your computer, the Internet, the software you used to compose and submit your message, your car, all the content on streaming and broadcast TV, modern medicine, coal power, oil power, gas power, wind power, solar power, rockets, satellites, the James Webb Space Telescope, guns, bullets, grenades, missiles, atomic bombs, etc. "Puny" might not be your most appropriate adjective choice.
It's utterly clueless when confronted with evidence of the supernatural - miracles, for example - which atheists wilfully deny, since they're incompatible with their godless fantasy world. While I wouldn't phrase it this way, your meaning is clear. But what you say about science and the supernatural is true by definition. Science studies the natural. "Evidence of the supernatural" is a contradiction in terms. It isn't so much that science denies the existence of miracles as that it questions the existence of any claims unsupported by evidence.
I have strong feelings against the evil religion has caused in humanity for millennia. Do you have "strong feelings against the evil" atheist (Communist) regimes of the 20th century that were responsible for more bloodshed that all the centuries of religion combined? Atheists are the biggest killers in history, by far. Career criminals are all atheists too. Evil begets evil. Gee, I don't know about that. Are you maybe leaving out a few religious wars? Take the Tiaping War led on one side by someone who proclaimed himself the brother of Jesus Christ. Around 15 to 20 million were killed in that war. Hitler killed around 6 million Jews. Many of Stalin's murders were religiously motivated because he was trying to stamp out religion. But does it really matter whether communism or religion caused the most deaths? Whichever way you cut it, each were responsible for a horrendous number of deaths.
but you haven’t made me emperor so I can’t hang the last capitalist billionaire with the entrails of the last priest. I’m ready to enact the most draconian measures against religion What we've got here is a full-blown, neo-Communist psychopath. He does sound extreme. I can't endorse his comments.
He gets on his moral high-horse about racism, but seethes with murderous hatred for anyone who believes in God or has more money than he does (probably hates Jews too). Ol' misery guts ... hates life so much he can't wait to die. Seems to be a bit of hate on your side, too.
What you need to do is, wake up and realize the obvious logical implications of your belief system: If this life is all there is and is the result of mindless evolution, everything is meaningless,... No one understands your argument that the nonexistence of God means "everything is meaningless." It is the people in our lives that give life meaning, as well as the other things in our lives, like community and art and sports and so on.
Evolution doesn't care about religion,... It doesn't bother you that neither chemistry nor plumbing care about religion, so why do you care that evolution doesn't?
Atheists are so dumb. What would you say about someone who offers arguments, sees them rebutted, then keeps repeating the same arguments while ignoring the rebuttals?
The strictures of secular society on social behavior and common mores is more effective at defining a viable humanist social morality than any imposed religious one.
Right, you mean "morality" like gay marriage and abortion ... LOL. Atheists also introduced the madness of feminism and multiculturalism - products of their idiotic egalitarian morality. So you're anti-gay, you're against women having control over their own bodies, you're against equal rights for women, you're against non-white Christian cultures, and you're against equality. Atheists in general accept all people, all cultures, all religions. They're against murder, discrimination and coercion. There's a good example of the evil of religion in Texas right now where a women obtained a court order allowing her to get an abortion because her baby had a fatal genetic disease that if carried to term would cause sickness until birth and followed by risks of sterility and even death. The Attorney General has vowed to go after doctors who perform that or related procedures anyway. Religion sounds just lovely.
The secular society of Pol Pot (more of your Communists mates here) was particularly "effective at defining ... morality" - it thought it moral to murder 25% of the population of Cambodia in the name of equality - anyone in society who wasn't a lowly peasant had to die (oh, except for the guiding elites, of course). Atheism is evil. Atheists no more supported Pol Pot, who happened to be an atheist, anymore than you support a murderer who happens to be a Christian. Crimes by those who happen to be atheists indict atheism no more than crimes by those who happen to be Christian indict Christianity. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Dredge writes: Tanypteryx writes: I think you are mistaken to think we (the atheists here) have refused to consider the possibility of a higher power. In reading what they have written here, for years, it is quite clear that every one of them has considered that possibility deeply. If any of you had any evidence we would look at it. This is bullshit. Atheists don't believe in God because they don't want God in their lives. There are some things people don't want in their lives, like abusive parents. But given all the wonderful things religious believers say about God, who wouldn't want God in their lives? There's just one problem: there's no evidence of God, just like there's no evidence of dragons and unicorns. It has been pointed out innumerable times that religious believers are very similar to atheists. Atheists reject all religions while religious believers reject all religions but one. That's the only difference. There's one religion that you've deemed the one, right and true religion, and to you that one is okay, but all the rest you ignore, just like atheists.
It's got nothing to do with "evidence" - atheists see the same evidence of God as believers, but unlike believers, atheists willfully choose to ignore that evidence. We all know there's no evidence. Were there evidence the world would flock to that religion and the others would fade away.
When I tell atheists about the two miracles that I personally experienced, they conclude I must be suffering some form of insanity - they don't believe me bcoz they don't want to believe me. They don't believe you because you have no evidence. Your personal testimony in support of your particular set of religious beliefs has no more weight than that of anyone of any other religion. Religious believers of all faiths should come together at a world conference where they work out all their differences and disagreements until they can present the one, right and true set of beliefs. And the evidence behind them, of course.
Atheists use all the negative things in life to argue against the existence of God, while believers accept the existence of God despite all the negative things in life. And since there's a recent case in Texas, let me ask how Edwards syndrome (trisomy 18) argues for God. From Trisomy 18 - Wikipedia:
Wikipedia: And that doesn't even mention the health risks to the mother. This is not the work of a loving God. It's the result of imperfect natural processes.
sometimes atheists aggressively reject religions because of the atrocities perpetrated throughout human history because of religious differences No, they reject religion because they reject God, then they use the unfortunate history of religious wars as a rock to hurl at those who do believe in God. Justifiably so. The knuckleheads on one side believe one set of fictions, those on the other side a different set of fictions, and they set about murdering each other over whose fiction is true. Obviously neither is true.
Atheist often get fed up with being discriminated against in this society Boo hoo, that's so sad. Thankfully, there are still people know instinctively that atheism is inherently evil. Evil? How is classifying God and the Bible as fiction any different from classifying the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita or A Tale of Two Cities and so on as fiction? Why do you think one evil and rest not? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Dredge in Message 106 writes: "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse". What is your excuse for not glorifying Allah or Jehovah or Buddha or Krishna or Amaterasu Okimaki or Waheguru? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Phat in Message 108 writes: I don't know about Dredge's god, but my version hides from you on purpose because he wants you to strive harder to find him rather than being arrogant enough to dismiss him and move on. What is the difference between a hidden God who never provides any hint of his existence, and a God who doesn't exist?
My God won't give up on you, though. My Teddy Bear (yes, I still have him) won't give up on you, either. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 23191 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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Phat writes: Percy writes: My Teddy Bear (yes, I still have him) won't give up on you, either. You actually think that Teddy Bear is more real than my God?(Jesus) ![]() I can post an image of my Teddy Bear. What can you provide as evidence?
Dredge gets mad that nobody will believe his conversion experience, but I had one too and I quite expect nobody to believe it. That's because it's all in your head. Lot's of things happen in people's heads. They're not real. Although you quoted me, I don't see how your response in any way addressed what I said: What is the difference between a hidden God who never provides any hint of his existence and a God who doesn't exist? --Percy
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