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Author
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Topic: Atheists: Time to Come Out of the Closet!
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 6 of 174 (912928)
10-06-2023 4:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
10-06-2023 2:55 PM
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Re: Atheist Я Us
Phat writes: Why on earth would I wish to declare my atheism? ffs Phat, it's an instruction aimed at atheists.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Phat, posted 10-06-2023 2:55 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 42 of 174 (913167)
10-14-2023 1:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
10-14-2023 12:38 PM
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Re: We Of Little Faith
Phat writes: I think that choice plays a role in either conversion or deconversion. Your conversion sounds like a description of a revelation.
Phat:
for me, conversion was my experiencing an internal and immediate realization
I can't see how that can involve choice. There's all sorts of problems with this nonsense of course, the most obvious being that no-one ever gets a revelation from a god he doesn't already know all about, regardless of religion. The more difficult point to get your head round is the sheer unfairness of the thing. Apparently those that aren't baptised into the Christian faith can never enter the kingdom of heaven. So how come you get to see the revealed truth but I don't?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Phat, posted 10-14-2023 12:38 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 43 by Phat, posted 10-14-2023 2:02 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 44 of 174 (913170)
10-14-2023 2:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
10-14-2023 2:02 PM
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Re: We Of Little Faith
Phat writes: I could have chosen to dismiss my initial experience, revelation, or whatever as illogical. I could have chosen to question or even doubt myself. uh? How could you have done that, you had a visitation from Jesus himself?
There is a difference between knowing about someone and meeting someone.
That's my point - see above. But the other point is that NOBODY EVER gets a revelation from a religious deity that they've never heard about.
From whose perspective?
From mine and everyone else that doesn't get this revelation you dingbat! You get saved by a personal revelation everybody else doesn't. How is that fair? (Please understand, this is rhetorical.)
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Phat, posted 10-14-2023 2:02 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-15-2023 6:37 AM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 54 by Phat, posted 10-19-2023 4:59 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 46 of 174 (913177)
10-15-2023 6:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
10-15-2023 6:37 AM
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Re: We Of Little Faith
Phat writes: No more than Saul of Tarsus did. Neither Saul/Paul nor myself ever saw Jesus. Apologists would say that conversion occurs by the Holy Spirit. You're comparing yourself to Paul? Anyway, I'd say being struck blind for three days, flashes of light and the Lord speaking directly to him would have been fairly convincing for a superstitious primitive. I suspect your revelation was rather more mundane. But you consider it fair, being a 'chosen one'?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Phat, posted 10-15-2023 6:37 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 47 by Phat, posted 10-15-2023 6:57 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 48 of 174 (913179)
10-15-2023 7:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
10-15-2023 6:57 AM
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Re: We Of Little Faith
it likely will happen to you too some day. It did, my revelation was that it's all bollox.
As for fairness.... You're avoiding the question. Obviously it happens to very few people so how is it fair?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Phat, posted 10-15-2023 6:57 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by Phat, posted 10-15-2023 10:26 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 50 of 174 (913183)
10-15-2023 11:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
10-15-2023 10:26 AM
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Re: We Of Little Faith
Phat writes: Be more specific. What do you mean *all*? Do you mean that all organized religion is bollox? Do you mean that the very idea of a higher power is bollox? Do you mean that faith is bollox? I mean that all claims of the supernatural are bollox. Organised religion double bollox as it utilises human credulity for its own purposes.
Narrow down precisely what your revelation was? Was it a sudden one day revelation or has it been reinforced by your peer group? I realised that the words I was saying in church were embarrassing bollox and that my church had no clothes on. Probably took about 6 months. I had to fight my peer group and my parents. However, I couldn't help noticing that when both their kids had left home they no longer went to church. Seems they were only going through the motions for us bless 'em.
And it appears that your revelation does not happen to everyone either.How is that fair? My revelation wasn't a revelation you wingnut! It was no more a revelation than finding out Father Christmas was a sweet little invention used by our parents to make us happy. No voices, apparitions or supernatural interventions, just reason and realisation. Anyway, I asked first, why, if our eternal souls depend on it, is it fair that Jesus only reveals himself to a very few? What makes you so special? Try not to evade the question.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Phat, posted 10-15-2023 10:26 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 51 of 174 (913245)
10-19-2023 2:53 AM
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Still no answer Phat?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-19-2023 4:47 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 53 of 174 (913247)
10-19-2023 4:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
10-19-2023 4:47 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Phat writes: What makes you think you have no choice? Can you please answer my questioner or tell me that you can't; quit trying to avoid it. why, if our eternal souls depend on it, is it fair that Jesus only reveals himself to a very few?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by Phat, posted 10-19-2023 4:47 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-19-2023 5:03 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 56 of 174 (913251)
10-19-2023 5:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
10-19-2023 5:03 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Ok
Did I answer your question? Yes, thank you. There is an obvious follow-up Why is your god unjust?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-19-2023 5:03 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 57 by Phat, posted 10-19-2023 7:54 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 58 of 174 (913258)
10-20-2023 2:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
10-19-2023 7:54 PM
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Re: Choose This Day
Phat writes: Do you mean why did He supposedly bless Jacob Israel and curse Esau Palestine? No Phat, we weren't talking about that were we? You've agreed with me that god revealing himself to a few people and not to all people is unfair (given that the future of our everlasting soul is supposed to be at stake.) So why is your god so unfair?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Phat, posted 10-19-2023 7:54 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-20-2023 4:05 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 61 of 174 (913261)
10-20-2023 4:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 59 by Phat
10-20-2023 4:05 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Oh stop it Phat. There is no analogy that works. You are talking about god choosing to speak directly to you. (And Paul). He's not broadcasting, he's narrowcasting. He's apparently chosen to reveal himself to you specifically. He hasn't done the same for me, why not? Is that fair? And those Hamas guys. They really believe. They really have heard the revealed truth. They actually have given everything in answer to god's call. You, nah, you can't follow the truth that's been revealed to you because it's a bit inconvenient. Which is fake? Could it be that you're just not quite as deluded as them?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by Phat, posted 10-20-2023 4:05 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-20-2023 4:33 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 63 of 174 (913263)
10-20-2023 5:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
10-20-2023 4:33 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Phat writes: Their "God" told them to kill. Why is that a difficulty for you? Your god has given many instructions to kill. And your god is the god of Abraham; so is theirs. They have heard god's voice and acted on it.
Are you saying that were I atheist I would be less delusional than I am now? Yes of course. And so would they. If god didn't talk to them they would not kill - or at least not suicidally in order to gain heaven the fast way. I'm also trying to point out that those Hamas boys have heard the voice of god just like you. We both know that they're deluded, so why can't the same apply to you? We think it does - Christians are not excluded from delusional belief just because they say so.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-20-2023 4:33 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 64 by Phat, posted 10-20-2023 9:57 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 65 of 174 (913265)
10-20-2023 12:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
10-20-2023 9:57 AM
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Re: Choose This Day
Phat writes: Because my God is not a God in a book. My God is living and active. My God is personified in the character of Jesus Christ. Without the damn book there'd be no damn Abrahamic religions. They all believe that their god is the real god and that he's speaking to them. There's absolutely no difference, you're all deluded. You've heard the voice of God, they've heard the voice of Satan. Can you really say that with a straight face?
Agreed. Christians, Jews, and Muslims can ALL be deluded. What makes atheists immune from delusion?
Of course, but not about whose sky daddy is the best sky daddy. You're all bonkers.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Phat, posted 10-20-2023 9:57 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 72 by Dredge, posted 12-02-2023 1:31 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 73 of 174 (913739)
12-02-2023 2:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 72 by Dredge
12-02-2023 1:31 PM
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Re: Choose This Day
Dredge:
If atheists are correct and this life is all there is, then nothing matters, bcoz life is meaningless - so it doesn't matter if all religion is bonkers.
I suggest you pretend for a day that there is no god and see if nothing matters. Here's a clue, millions of atheists think that our lives here matter and you won't do a thing differently except waste time chanting crap to imaginary beings.
quote:
It doesn't matter what humans do or think or believe or feel or experience - they're just bags of chemicals whose existence is as meaningless as a bag of mud. Most atheists lack the courage to face up to this fact - going so far as to deny it - but that doesn't matter either.
Do you want to explain what you think doesn't matter and what you mean by meaningless? As above, I find immense meaning in my life and what happens in it means a lot to me. In fact, because I know that this life is all I have it means everything to me; unlike you who thinks that this is just god's waiting room.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 72 by Dredge, posted 12-02-2023 1:31 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2023 2:47 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9617 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.8
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Message 76 of 174 (913766)
12-03-2023 5:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by Dredge
12-03-2023 2:47 PM
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Re: Choose This Day
Dredge writes: Been there, done that. Atheism means a human being is just a bag of chemicals that's here today and gone tomorrow - there's no meaning in that; chemicals don't have meaning. If religion is a fantasy world, atheists who believe their lives have meaning also live in a fantasy world. Any meaning atheists ascribe to life is an invention of weak minds that can't accept reality. But that's OK, coz if this life is all there is, life is as meaningless as death, so it doesn't matter if someone lives in a dream world. I get that some people just can't deal with reality so make up their own. I just wish you wouldn't bother the rest of us with it.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by Dredge, posted 12-03-2023 2:47 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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