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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 7 of 377 (913077)
10-10-2023 2:19 PM


Israel is Reaping What it Sowed
Hamas is now much in the news, but before Hamas there were other Palestinian organizations. First there was the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) that vowed, along with most of the Arab sympathizing nations, to push Israel into the sea. There was no compromising, no negotiating. Israel ceasing to exist was the only acceptable answer. The Camp David Accords negotiated by Jimmy Carter in 1978 didn't bring peace, and neither did Bill Clinton's attempt in 2000. Israel was as much under threat as ever.
Why can't there be peace in the Middle East? While the Palestinians bear significant responsibility for the lack of negotiated compromises, they are not the ones with the power. Israel has almost all the power, and they've made an industry out of mistreating Palestinians. They've taken their land and blown up their homes. They subjected Gaza to a blockade. Some Palestinian families are entering their fourth generation of living in refugee camps. Until Israel demonstrates sincerity and commitment in improving the lives of Palestinians they will continue to live under threat of Palestinian retaliation.
I admit to not following the region closely, so if there are any responses I expect they'll contain corrections and additional context.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-10-2023 3:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 10-11-2023 1:27 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(5)
Message 23 of 377 (913136)
10-13-2023 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
10-13-2023 12:36 AM


Re: It All Started With the Nakba
Phat writes:
Israel,stunned by an attack that their elite intelligence failed to see coming, is bound and determined to eliminate Hamas as a legitimate government and leave no room for negotiation.
Hamas, as the details of their recent incursions into Israel made abundantly clear, is a terrorist organization that is also the dominant political force in the Palestinian territories.
In a way, Hamas, as well as Fatah and Hezbollah, are the creation of Israel. They only exist in their current form as mostly military organizations opposed to Israel's existence because Israel inflicts unending suffering and hardship on Palestinians, which only perpetuates an unending cycle of violence. Just as the Serbs and Croatians fight battles over wrongs from centuries ago, the Israelis and the Palestinians are marching down a similar path. Who would find it surprising if in 2452 when Israel punishes Gaza yet again that they cite as one of their reasons the Hamas incursion of several centuries before in 2023?
Neither side is rational, but Israel currently has the moral high ground.
Israel's moral ground couldn't be lower.
The UN is seemingly NOT Pro Israel and some suggest that the global consensus leans more the other way.
I don't know what the consensus at the UN is, but Palestinians in Israel are treated in a manner not all that dissimilar from black Americans living under Jim Crow laws and southern prejudice. I'm sure we all have wonderfully warm feelings for the Israelis who cannot even treat Palestinians as if they were human.
It is wrong that the most influential Palestinian organizations want Israel to cease to exist, but Israel is the strongest power in the Middle East because of the luck of history, not because of any moral high ground. If the fall of the Ottoman Empire hadn't led to Britain ruling the Middle East in the years before WWII, and if Britain's history didn't make it far more familiar with Jews than with Arabs and Palestinians, Jews would never have been able to carve out the Israeli homeland. Might does not make right, as Israel's many moral wrongs can attest.
If any single individual is responsible for the Hamas attack on Israel it is Benjamin Netanyahu. His hard line stance on Palestinians made their situation intolerable. The answer is not ever greater security and ever increasing military power. The answer is to make peace with their neighbors, and that work begins at home by treating Palestinians as human beings.
Israel is not our ally because we admire their morality and humanity. They are our ally because they occupy a strategic location in the Middle East. A less moral and humane ally we could not have.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-13-2023 12:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 10-13-2023 11:09 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 10-14-2023 7:39 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 30 by marc9000, posted 10-14-2023 10:47 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 65 of 377 (913227)
10-18-2023 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
10-17-2023 9:42 PM


Re: War Update from BBC
Phat in Message 55 writes:
Israel was there first.
I don't think anyone realizes you're referring to around 3000 years ago.
It was the modern state of Israel that displaced the Palestinian people, who bear some significant responsibility for their plight due to their refusal to negotiate. The formation of a Jewish state was anathema to them. They refused to even consider the possibility and so declined to participate in the process.
Even after Israel became a legal state they had to fight the Palestinians for control of the land. Menachem Begin was head of what was widely considered a Jewish terrorist organization before he became a politician.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 10-17-2023 9:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 66 of 377 (913228)
10-18-2023 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
10-18-2023 10:45 AM


Re: War Update from BBC
Phat writes:
I should have clarified. The division in US politics is appalling. You are the people who cheer when Hamas strikes Israel!
Why do you say crazy things like this?
Both parties bear responsibility for the cycle of violence in the Middle East. Israel has all the political and military power, so Palestinians living under Israeli control are second class citizens. Israel takes their land, destroys their homes, arrests and jails their people. Gaza has been under blockade. The Palestinians fight back in the only way that people without power or hope can.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 10-18-2023 10:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 67 of 377 (913229)
10-18-2023 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
10-18-2023 10:51 AM


Re: War Update from ABC News
Phat in Message 64 writes:
TheoTypical writes:
And you ignored AzPaul's post completely. Typical.
You mean his point that Palestine was there before Israel? My History Book shows them both there together. The powers that were booted the Jews out.
I can't decipher this. There has never been a recognized state of Palestine. It's a region. The power that did the most to force the Jews into the diaspora was the Roman Empire when they destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 10-18-2023 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 94 of 377 (913313)
10-23-2023 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Theodoric
10-23-2023 8:35 AM


Re: War Update from BBC
History is full of tales of brilliant men of enormous accomplishment who as they grow older seem to inexplicably divert down senseless paths. Ken Chesebro, who once worked for Al Gore's campaign, is a very recent example. Fred Hoyle would have won a Nobel Prize for his astrophysical work if he hadn't so embarrassingly clung to ideas about a static universe and later pursued creationism (the OEC variety).
I think people's minds lead them whither they will and that people have no choice but to follow helplessly along. I'm sure we all hope we're one of the ones who get to maintain sense and rationality as we age.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 10-23-2023 8:35 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 97 of 377 (913316)
10-23-2023 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
10-23-2023 10:14 AM


Re: The Mid East War Ramps Up
Phat writes:
You obviously are against Jesus Christ...
Why do you keep repeating this same mistake over and over again. Non-Christians and atheists are not "against Jesus Christ." Believing there was never any such person as Jesus Christ is no different than believing there was never any such person as Robin Hood. Non-believers in Robin Hood are no more "against Robin Hood" than non-believers in Jesus Christ are "against Jesus Christ." How much sense would it make to be against someone you believe fictional?
Even severe criticisms of Christianity do not mean that one is "against Christianity." Issuing criticisms does make one against something. For example, all the recent criticisms of the House of Representatives do not mean people are "against the House of Representatives," so why should it be assumed that criticizing Christianity means one is "against Christianity."
There are definitely things people are against. Many people are against dictatorships, abortion, budget deficits and genocide, but people are not often against things they believe fictional. Were zombies and vampires real I would definitely be against them, but they're not. And neither is Jesus Christ.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 10-23-2023 10:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by dwise1, posted 10-23-2023 1:23 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 115 of 377 (913358)
10-24-2023 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
10-23-2023 9:06 PM


Re: Religion vs Relationship
Phat writes:
Many of the peanut gallery, while not siding with him, mention Israel as the aggressor and the Palestinians as victims. I can fully see their argument.
This mischaracterizes the position. The key issue is how long a people can be expected to stand idly by while their people are systematically destroyed. Hamas's recent terrorist acts against Israel cannot be justified, but neither can Israel's daily injustices against Palestinians.
I would argue, however, that reality does not need religion in order to be cruel to our fellow man.
But it sure helps.
Jews and Christians are not alike in one way. Jews are Jewish by ethnicity and can choose whether or not to be Jewish by profession of belief. Christians are not Christian by ethnicity, so we are essentially people of every tribe tongue and nation who have chosen to profess belief in Jesus Christ.
Your race-centric views are showing again.
When everyone on this forum sees Phat behaving horribly, they challenge his(my) profession...and quite rightly so. They cant challenge my ethnicity. I am not behaving badly because I am a WASP. When Israel(Jews) behave badly, it is not because of the profession of Judaism. As I have said before, some are atheists. They are, however, still Jews and are united due to a national identity and not (at this time) a religious identity.
This hash of illogic defies rational interpretation. The only clear thing that emerges is your racism.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 10-23-2023 9:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 10-24-2023 7:40 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 118 of 377 (913361)
10-24-2023 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
10-24-2023 7:40 PM


Re: Religion vs Relationship
Phat writes:
Oh bullshit! How TF am I racist?
Don't sweat it, you've got lots of company. There are few racists who realize it and fewer who admit it. Yours is obvious from the things you say and the arguments you make, e.g.:
It is a fact that Jews are Jewish through ethnicity.
That the fact that many Jews are of the Hebrew race is relevant to your broader argument displays your racism.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 10-24-2023 7:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 10-25-2023 5:45 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 126 of 377 (913376)
10-25-2023 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
10-25-2023 5:45 PM


Re: Religion vs Relationship
Phat writes:
That the fact that many Jews are of the Hebrew race is relevant to your broader argument displays your racism.
Many? Kindly explain who the rest of the Hebrew race is.
Not all followers of Judaism are Hebrew. A convert to Judaism is a Jew (a follower of Judaism, a religion) but not a Hebrew (a racial category).
It was clear from context in your earlier statements that you were using Jews as a racial category, which is a very common use of the word, but I wanted to be more precise, giving you an opportunity to say that you actually meant something other than the racist comment you appeared to be making.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 10-25-2023 5:45 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 10-26-2023 5:13 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 128 of 377 (913383)
10-26-2023 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phat
10-26-2023 5:13 AM


Re: BBC Update 10 26 23
Phat writes:
What alternative strategy could Israel take? I cautiously agree that Hamas is not the best government for the Palestinians, but the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people guarantee that many more future recruits will engage in a Jihad (Holy War) against Israel. How best could Israel even begin to win over the hearts and minds of this people and guarantee the safety of its own people?
‚Äč
How, in other words, could Israel hypothetically undo what has happened over the past 40+ years?
You don't behave with humanity because you want to win over hearts and minds. You behave with humanity for its own sake because that is the right thing, the humane thing.
"Mighty vengeance" promised Netanyahu. The evil that men do has dispossessed Israel of its humanity and there's nothing to be done.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phat, posted 10-26-2023 5:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 10-27-2023 2:18 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 135 of 377 (913392)
10-27-2023 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
10-27-2023 2:18 AM


Re: BBC Update 10 27 23
Phat writes:
It would do me good to read a book. Does anyone have any suggestions as to a good book that will take my mind to a calmer place?
What's relaxing depends on your tastes, but here are some high quality works of fiction:
The Last Thing He Told MeLaura Dave
WildCheryl Strayed
Where the Crawdads SingDelia Owens
EducatedTara Westover
The Year of Magical ThinkingJoan Didion
Girl, ForgottenKarin Slaughter
Run, Rose, RunDolly Parton
The Boys from BiloxiJohn Grisham
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 10-27-2023 2:18 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 10-27-2023 10:36 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 141 of 377 (913404)
10-28-2023 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
10-27-2023 10:36 AM


Re: BBC Update 10 27 23
They all come in audio versions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 10-27-2023 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 142 of 377 (913420)
10-29-2023 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Tanypteryx
10-27-2023 2:37 PM


Re: BBC Update 10 27 23
How does Audible work? Do you borrow or buy? If borrow, how much and how long is the borrow period? If buy, how much? And is TUSLOTW free for all Audible users, or just as part of the sign-up deal?
I did go to the site, but once I got to "get 2 credits to get you started" and was left figuring out what a credit was, I stopped.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-27-2023 2:37 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Tanypteryx, posted 10-29-2023 12:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 10-31-2023 11:58 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22567
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.6


(5)
Message 176 of 377 (913561)
11-13-2023 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
11-13-2023 3:03 AM


Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
If some combination of Hamas forces and materiel are under a hospital then there is only one way for Israel to act that is not a war crime: they must first evacuate all civilians in the hospital to another medical facility that is adequately safe and appropriate for each patient's care. If the hospital is destroyed then Israel is responsible for finding permanent safe and appropriate medical facilities for the patients.
But if Israel commits war crimes while combating Hamas then our political leaders, Biden first and foremost, must step up to the plate and treat Israel as the war criminal nation that it is.
Having atrocities committed against you does not confer upon you the right to commit atrocities in return, not against the principals who committed the original atrocities, nor against those who are merely in the way. We know this, it's what our humanity requires, and if we fail to acknowledge this then we lose our humanity and remain the enablers of evil that we have been for decades.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 11-13-2023 3:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by AZPaul3, posted 11-14-2023 7:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 178 by AZPaul3, posted 11-14-2023 7:46 AM Percy has replied
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 11-14-2023 5:41 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 11-14-2023 5:48 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 187 by marc9000, posted 11-16-2023 7:47 PM Percy has replied

  
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