Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.

From
Message 8

Tanypteryx:

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The latest attacks by Hamas were predictable and I am fine with every single one of the terrorist perpetrators being killed. The lives of Palestinians are atrocious and have been since Israel was formed in 1948. The Israelis have had all the power for more than 75 years and their policy has always seemed to be subjugation. This has also, ironically, forced all those terrorist organizations to hide among innocent blockaded Palestinians so Israeli retaliation always kills many innocents, further fueling hatred and future terrorist attacks.
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After 75 years maybe the Israelis should rethink their long-term strategy. Until they do, I don't support aid from the U.S.

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From what I hear, there are already two US Carrier Strike groups in the region and two more on the way. This war is a bloody mess! The Bible talks of wars and rumors of wars in Matthew 24:3. While I am cautious about interpreting all History through a Biblical lens, I dont rule it out either. My primary reason is because of what Jesus said over 2000 years ago and what the scripture could mean today.Let's peruse

BBC:

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• Thousands more people have left northern Gaza for the south, the Israeli military says
• A route was open for four hours today - the fifth consecutive day it has been in operation
• For weeks, Israel has told people in the north of Gaza to head south, saying it is safer
• But Hamas-run authorities say Israeli air strikes killed more than 100 people in the southern Gaza Strip in the past 24 hours
• Earlier, the G7 group of nations - including the UK and US - called for "humanitarian pauses" in the fighting in Gaza (Pauses are not the same as a ceasefire - which Israel has ruled out while Hamas continues to hold Israeli hostages)
• Israel began striking Gaza after the Hamas attacks on 7 October, which saw 1,400 people killed and more than 200 taken hostage
• More than 10,500 people have been killed in Gaza according to the Hamas-run health ministry, including more than 4,300 children

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Again, I am not either pro or anti-Israel, and I am empathetic to the plight of the people of Gaza. Israel is over reacting due to its consensus that Hamas MUST be eliminated. Too many Palestinians will die in the process.

I'm just speculating, but I think the masks are standard gear for intense urban warfare. Word is that the tunnels will be targeted extensively. The challenge will be in taking out Hamas while minimizing civilian casualties while also not "accidentally " killing your own hostages.

I have a question. When you (or the US Army in general) were fighting in Viet Nam, , how could one tell the difference between civilian population and fighters? It seems much the same in Gaza. How does one tell a Palestinian from a Hamas? Perhaps the Israaeli soldiers want to emphasize just how different they look than a civilian because they dont want to get hit with friendly fire.
Peeking at todays news...

BBC:

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The US says that Israel will begin to implement four-hour military pauses in areas of northern Gaza each day to allow civilians to flee

White House spokesman John Kirby says the move represents a "significant first step"

There has been fighting between Israel and Hamas close to the Al Quds hospital in Gaza City

Our correspondent in the Gaza Strip reports "a real gun battle" in the area

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It looks as if though Israel is granting these pauses so that no one can accuse them of purposefully harming civilians. The fact is (and the US learned this in Viet Nam) the local population is an integral part of the propaganda war to show the international community. I have heard that there could be a major command center under that hospital. In fact, the entire hospital "could collapse" if the fighting went underneath it. (or get blown up) The question is not the survival of the Israeli hostages...they may already be casualties of war. The question is if Hamas is keeping their own Palestinian brothers and sisters from fleeing the battle.

I noticed a notable quote from BBC News. It sounded genuine and reflected the attitude of the Palestinian people in the hospitals surrounded by Israeli tanks.

BBC:

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More here from the medical charity Doctors Without Borders, which reported earlier today on conditions inside Al Shifa hospital in Gaza City.

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It said that "despite regular attacks and shortages", staff had "managed to keep the hospital operational".

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However Dr Ahmed El Mokhallalati, a senior plastic surgeon, said that the hospital was operating on "no more 20% or 15% of the staff".

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“Those who are staying in Al-Shifa hospital already decided they are dead," he said..

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The Israeli military has stated the hospital is not under siege and that those inside will be given safe passage.

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Dr Mohammed Obeid, a surgeon, is quoted by the charity as saying that many patients had recently undergone operations "and they cannot walk. They cannot evacuate”.

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The charity called for "an immediate ceasefire and for the protection of medical facilities, medical staff and patients.";

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The sad thing about the Palestinians is that they have been indoctrinated to behave as if they have already lost. Growing up in Palestine must be a bleak future for many of those young people. They feel as iif they would never have an opportunity to do anything great in life except to go out fighting as they would wish to be martyred.And this is why Israel will never win.The latest massacre by Hamas was in fact the fault of Hamas. Israel has exacted an eye for an eye many times over.Hamas will never go away in the spirit of the people. They need their own country with dignity.The kicker is that they will never be able to have the land that Israel is on.So what next?Latest BBC News 11/11/23:

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If you're just joining us, here are a few points to catch you up on today's developments:

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The Israeli military has said it will help evacuate babies from Gaza's largest hospital, Al Shifa, tomorrow after requests from its managers

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The IDF has acknowledged "clashes" with Hamas fighters in the area around the hospital but denied attacking it. It said it would coordinate with anyone who wanted to leave safely

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A surgeon at Al Shifa earlier told the BBC that power, water and food had all run out, and that the hospital's intensive care unit had been hit

Two babies in Al Shifa hospital have died due to a power outage and 37 others are at risk of death, say a doctors group. Israeli forces will evacuate babies to a "safer hospital" tomorrow, according to the Israeli military

The MSF charity says hospitals in the Gaza Strip more generally have been under "relentless bombardment" for the past 24 hours. The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) says Israeli tanks are within meters of the Al-Quds hospital. The Israeli military has not yet commented on this

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Islamic and Arab leaders have met in Saudi Arabia to discuss Israel's actions in Gaza, jointly demanding a "binding" UN resolution to end Israel's "aggression" in Gaza - and rejecting its description of IDF activity in Gaza as self defence.

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Lebanese media says Israel has carried out its deepest strike in Lebanese territory since cross-border violence began some weeks ago. No casualties were reported

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More than 300,000 people have taken to the streets in London to call for a ceasefire in Gaza. We have not had any reports of violence at the protest itself - but police say some 82 counter-protesters have been arrested nearby.

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As I have said, I am not on any side. I am on the side of a lasting peace. The time for war is already over. Perhaps the UN could attach a stipulation that the next side to initiate conflict after the peace is secured will be globally sanctioned.
Easier said than done.

Israel states that Hamas has headquarters under the hospital(s). Does this seem plausible?

IIRC, Israel already told the hospital to evacuate. The Doctors themselves, likely having previously lived in al-Zahra, an upscale neighborhood that had been flattened by Israel on October 20th, were basically homeless and sheltering at the hospital with many civilian casualties.Israel took this war rapidly to the very heart of Gaza City. Now for todays update from the BBC:

BBC 11/14/23:

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Fighting between Israel and Hamas continues in Gaza, including in Gaza City

The Israeli army says it's captured "the Hamas parliament" and other buildings in the city - and that Hamas has "lost control" of northern Gaza

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Earlier, a doctor at the main hospital in Gaza City, which is short of fuel, said 200 patients had been buried in a mass grave

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The US says it has intelligence backing Israel's claim that Hamas has a command centre under Al-Shifa hospital - which Hamas has denied

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Meanwhile, thousands of people sleeping in tents in Gaza face a night of torrential rain

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Israel earlier confirmed the death of 19-year-old Noa Marciano, a soldier kidnapped by Hamas during the 7 October attacks

Israel began striking Gaza after the attacks, in which 1,200 people were killed and more than 200 taken hostage

The Hamas-run health ministry says more than 11,000 people have been killed in Gaza since - of whom more than 4,500 were children

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So US intelligence is backing the claim by IDF that at least one hospital has ( command/control centers) underneath it.. War is hell. Israel has offered to move the babies but is not offering to move the entire hospital, where displaced Gaza residents (including Doctors) are sheltering.

BBC:

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US National Security Council spokesman John Kirby says the US has intelligence that Hamas has a command centre under Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City.

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Kirby told reporters the intelligence shows that "Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad use some hospitals in the Gaza Strip, including Al-Shifa, and tunnels underneath them to conceal and support their military operations and to hold hostages".

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He said the groups have stored weapons under Al-Shifa and are "prepared to respond to an Israeli military operation against that facility".

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Kirby added: "We do not support striking a hospital from the air and we do not want to see a firefight in the hospital where innocent people, helpless people, sick people are simply trying to get the medical care that they deserve, not to be caught in a crossfire. Hospitals and patients must be protected.

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He said this points out how "challenging the military operation is. Hamas has deeply embedded itself within the civilian population. Israel has now an added burden given the way Hamas operates".

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Finally, Kirby said that Hamas’s actions "do not lessen Israel’s responsibilities to protect civilians in Gaza" - and stated that the US is maintaining "active conversation" with the Israeli government about that.

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Unless the United States itself forces Israel to stop, Israel will not stop.It seems that the US has gone out on a limb to support Israel. I fear that our country itself may become involved in this war due to actions as extreme as domestic terrorism.

If you had a son who turned out to be a thief or abully or worse, would you disown him? Most people would say no.In my belief, God is not through with Israel. They *do* have some serious lessons to learn before they can claim the title of chosen people.In my opinion, (and belief) Israel was the original chosen. We now are all adopted into that "family". (Now im starting to sound like candle 2! )To be fair, every nation of people are potentially chosen. Every nation is loved. Jesus weeps for Palestine. No less than He weeps for all of us. We all have so much to learn. So are you saying that no country has any right to react even if attacked? Are you saying that all acts of killing are de-facto criminal? What sort of sentence would you impose on Israel? Would Hamas (the government of Palestine currently) receive any sentences as well?Global peace rallys are never held for powerful nations--only for helpless ones.The worlds bleeding heart always supports the weak.I only will point out that Hamas is not weak. They have weapons. They are merely overwhelmed.

No, because those explosions, while tragic, actually saved more lives than they took out.

​The BBC has briefly reported on this issue: Bowen: Ceasefire demands will grow without proof of Hamas HQ at Al-ShifaUS intelligence backed Israel on this one, so our country is increasingly being scrutinized for alliance with them.

BBC:

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Proving Hamas is using Gaza's medical facilities to cover its operations is a key Israeli objective and it is an accusation Hamas has repeatedly denied.

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Israel's major justification for killing so many people in Gaza - more than 11,500 in more than a month, according to the latest figure from the territory's Hamas-run health ministry - is that Hamas was using them as human shields. (...)So many civilians have been killed by Israel in Gaza in the last 42 days that concern is growing about Israel's methods in the United States - which is the only international power the Israelis really worry about.

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The Hospitals have no electricity and are running very low on food and water.One might expect that the patients are suffering as well as the rest of the people sheltered there.

Let's update the reality of this war from the BBC's perspective which we can freely comment on.
I use several media sources to form my own perspective on what is actually happening. Secular people not only focus on reality, they attempt to define the rules. This behavior causes clashes between global ideological groups. Global politics is about nothing more than arriving at a rational consensus.If one could argue that following the Bible obscures rational perspectives, I would invite them to provide examples, from scripture, that show a more sane alternative than is being reported.Israel is not special. They should be leaders in global morality, but they are behind the times and are judged by popular consensus. As for Hamas, they are in fact a terrorist organization and are a poor example of a government leading its people to a better end.Meanwhile, at the BBC: (11/19/2023)

BBC:

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Hundreds of people have been leaving al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City - the site that Israeli forces have been searching for days

Pictures show columns of Palestinians fleeing on foot, some waving white flags

A journalist among those leaving the hospital said there was gunfire and explosions overnight, and that bulldozers had dug huge holes in the hospital yard

The hospital director said the Israeli military had ordered an evacuation but the IDF denied this, saying it helped people leave after the director requested it

The Hamas-run health ministry says 120 patients remain at the hospital, along with premature babies

Israel accuses Hamas of running a command center under the hospital - it has shown pictures of an alleged tunnel shaft and weapons as evidence so far

Reports from elsewhere in northern Gaza say a UN school used as a shelter has been hit - Israel says it's investigating the claims

The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 12,000 people have been killed in the territory since Israel began its campaign against Hamas

It began heavily bombing the Gaza Strip after Hamas killed more than 1,200 people and took more than 200 hostages in the 7 October attacks on Israel

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In my opinion, Israel already knows that one cannot totally separate Hamas from the Palestinians of Gaza. It is as if Gaza is governed by a terrorist-leaning government of which the people themselves elected and support. The entire country is in effect a human shield against Israeli militarism. The UN is going to have to step in to manage winding down this war.Religion plays a role in perception. Israel believes that "never again" will they be victimized. They believe that Israel has a mandate from God Himself to the land they are on. Even if the land is politically given away or given back to its prior occupants, Israeli settlers will go and occupy it. American conservative Christians support Israel while American humanists support Palestine. The solution should incorporate both rather than either/or.

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The Hamas-run health ministry says 120 patients remain at the hospital, along with premature babies

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In my opinion, Hamas is using Palestinians as props to garner global support and sympathy. The only way to get rid of Hamas in the hearts and minds of oppressed Palestinians is to provide them a better alternative. With indoctrination from birth, that solution may be too late.
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I think that im pretty much in agreement with you. Right now, Israel has a unity government, so time will tell which type of leadership emerges from that.Hamas simply has to be abolished, vanquished, or squashed...take your pick. The reality is, however, that this may be next to impossible. Do you see it any differently?Has the cultural brainwashing by this terror organization blinded the average Palestinian, many under 21? Percy tends to blame Israel for all of the wrongs in that conflict, but Israel should not be vilified simply for being powerful.

His approval rating is low. Israel will elect a moderate next opportunity. Except that nobody on earth can squash Israel except the United States. And we won't. I think that much of the civilian casualties are the fault of Hamas.

A Four Day "pause" starts tomorrow in Gaza.

BBC:

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Summary

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A long-anticipated four-day pause in the fighting between Israel and Hamas is due to begin shortly

The temporary ceasefire will start at 07:00 local time (05:00 GMT) and the first group of 13 hostages held by Hamas will be freed at 16:00, according to Qatari mediators

Under the deal, Hamas will release 50 hostages from Gaza over four days and Israel will free 150 Palestinian prisoners

More aid will also be allowed into Gaza; a top UN official says he witnessed "unspeakable suffering" while visiting the Strip

Fighting has continued in the lead-up to the pause, which will be the first since the brutal conflict began nearly seven weeks ago

Hamas’s attacks on 7 October killed 1,200 people and saw about 240 taken hostage

Since then, Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry says more than 14,000 people have been killed in Israel's retaliatory campaign

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Earlier, I commented that the civilian casualties were partly the fault of Hamas. I say this because evidence has shown that Hamas mingles with the population at large, using them as a political statement that they are ALL in this together. Netanyahu vows to eliminate Hamas and in order to do that, some civilians will be involved so long as they are near the sights that are being targeted. This pause is largely symbolic and wont slow this war down anytime soon.It seems that most nations are against a World War. Nations make mistakes. As an example, the war in Afghanistan was effectively thwarted once the United States diverted its attention to Iraq. It could well be that we are making the same mistake in diverting our primary attention from Ukraine and focusing on Israel. As I said earlier, no nation has the power available to stop Israel, except the United States. Even a United Nations resolution likely won't have the effect.Can Israel eliminate Hamas? The answer is likely the same answer as to why we could not eliminate the Taliban in Afghanistan.Civilian casualties in Afghanistan were nearly 50,000 over 20 years.Civilian casualties are an unfortunate part of war.

I just watched a documentary on the former Shah of Iran, The Shahs main opponent, Khomeini, gained his strength through the ostracized lower class. The state was perceived as always being antagonistic towards the common man while the clergy welcomed them with open arms, insisting on a more fundamental interpretation of Islamic life. The Shah wanted to modernize and end feudalism, which he did. The lower class were still marginalized, however, and backed the eventual overthrow of the Shah.So my question: If Hamas is backed by fundamental Islam, and supported by the poor and marginalized, how can Israel expect to eliminate the root of Hamas by destroying over 50% of the homes in Palestine?The next question is this: If a two state solution was enforced in Israel, enforced by the UN instead of Israel itself, would terrorism be prevented or would there always be a conflict?

It was an analogy between Iran and Gaza. Iran was once pro-Western, as is Israel. The poor saw Western influence as a negative, partly due to religious indoctrination and partly due to the economic reality. The Shah was seen as helping the West as much or more than the marginalized in Iran. It is much the same with Gaza. The reason Hamas came to power is because the poor were and are marginalized.