Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9173 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Neptune7
Post Volume: Total: 917,585 Year: 4,842/9,624 Month: 190/427 Week: 0/103 Day: 0/0 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 166 of 378 (913518)
11-08-2023 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Tanypteryx
11-08-2023 12:07 PM


Tunnel Rats
I'm just speculating, but I think the masks are standard gear for intense urban warfare. Word is that the tunnels will be targeted extensively. The challenge will be in taking out Hamas while minimizing civilian casualties while also not "accidentally " killing your own hostages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-08-2023 12:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-08-2023 7:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 167 of 378 (913519)
11-08-2023 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
11-08-2023 5:46 PM


Re: Tunnel Rats
I'm just speculating, but I think the masks are standard gear for intense urban warfare.
Yeah, I know. It seems to be a pretty common part of modern foot soldier's kit. I can think of several functions, i.e. camouflage, dust masks, but I think a lot of times it's purely a tactic to intimidate your foes and impress the public. The costumes you see militarized police SWAT teams wearing seem to be pure intimidation and posturing for themselves. Their costumes look really uncomfortable in hot weather and also looks like it would impede breathing, hearing and peripheral vision. Helmets, body armor, gas masks, etc. Hell yeah, but this excessive head gear seems risky to me, and I don't remember seeing it in Nam.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 11-08-2023 5:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 11-10-2023 3:57 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 168 of 378 (913528)
11-10-2023 12:54 AM


it seems so long ago...
way back in the Carter Administration I wrote this limerick:
M.Begin and Anwar Sadat
Examined Camp David a lot.
. . Away from the sands
. . They brushed off their hands
And agreed that they'd shot their last shot.
if only Hamas and Netanyahu would stop....

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 169 of 378 (913529)
11-10-2023 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Tanypteryx
11-08-2023 7:39 PM


Re: Tunnel Rats
Tanypteryx writes:
I think a lot of times it's purely a tactic to intimidate your foes and impress the public. The costumes you see militarized police SWAT teams wearing seem to be pure intimidation and posturing for themselves. Their costumes look really uncomfortable in hot weather and also looks like it would impede breathing, hearing and peripheral vision. Helmets, body armor, gas masks, etc. Hell yeah, but this excessive head gear seems risky to me, and I don't remember seeing it in Nam.
I have a question. When you (or the US Army in general) were fighting in Viet Nam, , how could one tell the difference between civilian population and fighters? It seems much the same in Gaza. How does one tell a Palestinian from a Hamas? Perhaps the Israaeli soldiers want to emphasize just how different they look than a civilian because they dont want to get hit with friendly fire.
Peeking at todays news...
BBC:

  • The US says that Israel will begin to implement four-hour military pauses in areas of northern Gaza each day to allow civilians to flee
  • White House spokesman John Kirby says the move represents a "significant first step"
  • There has been fighting between Israel and Hamas close to the Al Quds hospital in Gaza City
  • Our correspondent in the Gaza Strip reports "a real gun battle" in the area
  • It looks as if though Israel is granting these pauses so that no one can accuse them of purposefully harming civilians. The fact is (and the US learned this in Viet Nam) the local population is an integral part of the propaganda war to show the international community. I have heard that there could be a major command center under that hospital. In fact, the entire hospital "could collapse" if the fighting went underneath it. (or get blown up) The question is not the survival of the Israeli hostages...they may already be casualties of war. The question is if Hamas is keeping their own Palestinian brothers and sisters from fleeing the battle.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-08-2023 7:39 PM Tanypteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 170 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-10-2023 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 171 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-10-2023 12:47 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Tanypteryx
    Member
    Posts: 4500
    From: Oregon, USA
    Joined: 08-27-2006
    Member Rating: 4.7


    (1)
    Message 170 of 378 (913530)
    11-10-2023 12:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
    11-10-2023 3:57 AM


    Re: Tunnel Rats
    When you (or the US Army in general) were fighting in Viet Nam, , how could one tell the difference between civilian population and fighters?
    If they had a rifle or grenade, you knew. That's the thing with insurgents, they don't wear uniforms. The thing about insurgents is they care more about their cause more than their people. Even if their cause is just, its operation is without honor.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
    What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
    One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
    If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
    The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 169 by Phat, posted 11-10-2023 3:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Tanypteryx
    Member
    Posts: 4500
    From: Oregon, USA
    Joined: 08-27-2006
    Member Rating: 4.7


    Message 171 of 378 (913531)
    11-10-2023 12:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
    11-10-2023 3:57 AM


    Re: Tunnel Rats
    Duplicate

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
    What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
    One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
    If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
    The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 169 by Phat, posted 11-10-2023 3:57 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 172 of 378 (913547)
    11-11-2023 3:32 PM


    This Sums Up The General Attitude
    I noticed a notable quote from BBC News. It sounded genuine and reflected the attitude of the Palestinian people in the hospitals surrounded by Israeli tanks.
    BBC:
    More here from the medical charity Doctors Without Borders, which reported earlier today on conditions inside Al Shifa hospital in Gaza City.
    It said that "despite regular attacks and shortages", staff had "managed to keep the hospital operational".
    However Dr Ahmed El Mokhallalati, a senior plastic surgeon, said that the hospital was operating on "no more 20% or 15% of the staff".
    “Those who are staying in Al-Shifa hospital already decided they are dead," he said..
    The Israeli military has stated the hospital is not under siege and that those inside will be given safe passage.
    Dr Mohammed Obeid, a surgeon, is quoted by the charity as saying that many patients had recently undergone operations "and they cannot walk. They cannot evacuate”.
    The charity called for "an immediate ceasefire and for the protection of medical facilities, medical staff and patients.";

    The sad thing about the Palestinians is that they have been indoctrinated to behave as if they have already lost. Growing up in Palestine must be a bleak future for many of those young people. They feel as iif they would never have an opportunity to do anything great in life except to go out fighting as they would wish to be martyred.
    And this is why Israel will never win.
    The latest massacre by Hamas was in fact the fault of Hamas. Israel has exacted an eye for an eye many times over.
    Hamas will never go away in the spirit of the people. They need their own country with dignity.
    The kicker is that they will never be able to have the land that Israel is on.
    So what next?
    Latest BBC News 11/11/23:
    quote:
    If you're just joining us, here are a few points to catch you up on today's developments:
  • The Israeli military has said it will help evacuate babies from Gaza's largest hospital, Al Shifa, tomorrow after requests from its managers
  • The IDF has acknowledged "clashes" with Hamas fighters in the area around the hospital but denied attacking it. It said it would coordinate with anyone who wanted to leave safely
  • A surgeon at Al Shifa earlier told the BBC that power, water and food had all run out, and that the hospital's intensive care unit had been hit
  • Two babies in Al Shifa hospital have died due to a power outage and 37 others are at risk of death, say a doctors group. Israeli forces will evacuate babies to a "safer hospital" tomorrow, according to the Israeli military
  • The MSF charity says hospitals in the Gaza Strip more generally have been under "relentless bombardment" for the past 24 hours. The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) says Israeli tanks are within meters of the Al-Quds hospital. The Israeli military has not yet commented on this
  • Islamic and Arab leaders have met in Saudi Arabia to discuss Israel's actions in Gaza, jointly demanding a "binding" UN resolution to end Israel's "aggression" in Gaza - and rejecting its description of IDF activity in Gaza as self defence.
  • Lebanese media says Israel has carried out its deepest strike in Lebanese territory since cross-border violence began some weeks ago. No casualties were reported
  • More than 300,000 people have taken to the streets in London to call for a ceasefire in Gaza. We have not had any reports of violence at the protest itself - but police say some 82 counter-protesters have been arrested nearby.
  • As I have said, I am not on any side. I am on the side of a lasting peace. The time for war is already over. Perhaps the UN could attach a stipulation that the next side to initiate conflict after the peace is secured will be globally sanctioned.
    Easier said than done.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 173 by Phat, posted 11-13-2023 3:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18388
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 173 of 378 (913552)
    11-13-2023 3:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
    11-11-2023 3:32 PM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    Israel states that Hamas has headquarters under the hospital(s). Does this seem plausible?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by Phat, posted 11-11-2023 3:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 174 by nwr, posted 11-13-2023 9:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 175 by AZPaul3, posted 11-13-2023 9:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 176 by Percy, posted 11-13-2023 4:39 PM Phat has replied

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6419
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005
    Member Rating: 5.1


    Message 174 of 378 (913553)
    11-13-2023 9:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
    11-13-2023 3:03 AM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    Phat in Message 173 writes:
    Does this seem plausible?
    Is it plausible -- yes.
    Is it true -- I don't know, and I don't trust either side to be truthful here.

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by Phat, posted 11-13-2023 3:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8593
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.2


    (1)
    Message 175 of 378 (913554)
    11-13-2023 9:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
    11-13-2023 3:03 AM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    Of course it's plausible. It's war.
    Is it real?
    Why would Israel lie? Given the horrendous visuals of dead civilians already suffered in this war why would they what to attack a hospital while the world watched if there is no need? Hamas is known for the use of human shields. Placing a major command bunker under a major hospital is not a stretch of credulity for Hamas.
    Yeah, it's probably there.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by Phat, posted 11-13-2023 3:03 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22607
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.7


    (5)
    Message 176 of 378 (913561)
    11-13-2023 4:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
    11-13-2023 3:03 AM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    If some combination of Hamas forces and materiel are under a hospital then there is only one way for Israel to act that is not a war crime: they must first evacuate all civilians in the hospital to another medical facility that is adequately safe and appropriate for each patient's care. If the hospital is destroyed then Israel is responsible for finding permanent safe and appropriate medical facilities for the patients.
    But if Israel commits war crimes while combating Hamas then our political leaders, Biden first and foremost, must step up to the plate and treat Israel as the war criminal nation that it is.
    Having atrocities committed against you does not confer upon you the right to commit atrocities in return, not against the principals who committed the original atrocities, nor against those who are merely in the way. We know this, it's what our humanity requires, and if we fail to acknowledge this then we lose our humanity and remain the enablers of evil that we have been for decades.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by Phat, posted 11-13-2023 3:03 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 177 by AZPaul3, posted 11-14-2023 7:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
     Message 178 by AZPaul3, posted 11-14-2023 7:46 AM Percy has replied
     Message 183 by Phat, posted 11-14-2023 5:41 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
     Message 184 by Phat, posted 11-14-2023 5:48 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
     Message 187 by marc9000, posted 11-16-2023 7:47 PM Percy has replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8593
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 177 of 378 (913563)
    11-14-2023 7:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
    11-13-2023 4:39 PM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    ignore

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 176 by Percy, posted 11-13-2023 4:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8593
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 178 of 378 (913564)
    11-14-2023 7:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
    11-13-2023 4:39 PM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    ... they must first evacuate all civilians in the hospital to another medical facility ...
    How?
    Right now the IDF can't get near the place. The reality on the ground is not IDF but Hamas control of the surrounding area.
    If there is a major Hamas command and control center under this hospital there is only one way the IDF can neutralize it, direct military force. Hamas has already said they will not talk, they want war.
    Israel can try to contain the bunker but do nothing to assault it.
    They can use bunker busters that penetrate 100s of feet and destroy everything on the surface including the hospital.
    Or, find the tunnels leading into the complex and go on a grueling bloody rat crawl that will probably collapse parts of the hospital.
    Which do you prefer?

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 176 by Percy, posted 11-13-2023 4:39 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 179 by Percy, posted 11-14-2023 8:38 AM AZPaul3 has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22607
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 4.7


    (3)
    Message 179 of 378 (913565)
    11-14-2023 8:38 AM
    Reply to: Message 178 by AZPaul3
    11-14-2023 7:46 AM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    AZPaul3 writes:
    ... they must first evacuate all civilians in the hospital to another medical facility ...
    How?
    I don't know how. I just know the definition of war crimes. A military using civilians as a shield doesn't make maiming and killing civilians okay. It's still a war crime, and I'll add my voice to those who don't want our country complicit in war crimes.
    Israel must (though they won't, at least not while Netanyahu or anyone like him is prime minister) accept responsibility for their part in creating the ongoing mess. Every year that they continue to harass, victimize, displace, mistreat and murder Palestinians (and it's been many, many, many years) gives more life and energy to the forces attempting to counter Israel's ongoing crimes against humanity.
    That doesn't make me a supporter of Hamas, Hezballah, Islamic Jihad and all of those. I oppose their crimes against humanity, too. No outrage is so great that it justifies committing crimes against humanity.
    What is required is for both Israel and the Palestinians to recognize that the people they oppose are not going away and that they're going to have to find ways to live peaceably with each other.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 178 by AZPaul3, posted 11-14-2023 7:46 AM AZPaul3 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 180 by AZPaul3, posted 11-14-2023 10:51 AM Percy has replied

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8593
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 180 of 378 (913566)
    11-14-2023 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 179 by Percy
    11-14-2023 8:38 AM


    Re: This Sums Up The General Attitude
    What is required is for both Israel and the Palestinians to recognize that the people they oppose are not going away and that they're going to have to find ways to live peaceably with each other.
    I don’t think that can happen. There is too much religion involved. We can only hope.
    This whole mess is based on acceptance of millennia-old religious land claims without regard to the present occupants, in a region where the two religions had such deep divisions and non-stop wars for near 1300 years. What could possibly go wrong?
    Humanity, as I see us acting, is not yet ready to be humanist. The religious poison in the power struggles is not abating.
    Palestine is a social and political thorn in the heart of Israel. They are a belligerent captive population under occupation. As has been so recently demonstrated, Israel will not be safe until the occupied population can be placated, which is not happening. Over the last 70 years Israel has opted for a slow ethnic cleansing process against Palestinian society and culture. The present attack by Hamas is an opportunity for Israel to respond with such force as to greatly further their cleansing goal. I expect them to push their attack as far and as fierce as possible until they are forced to stop by world action. That means USofA action telling them to stop and threatening sanctions.
    After that, hopes and prayers will be followed by some blankets and bags of grain. The politicians will wring their hands in worry and concern and a political accommodation will be stated. As usual, nothing much will have changed for the Palestinians who will still be a belligerent captive population under occupation, just 15,000 people less. Palestine will be told, once again by the international community, they must cease their struggles and submit to Israeli occupation.
    God gave Israel the land and they have every right to fight for it.
    Palestinian land was stolen from them by the most unclean of infidels and by the will of Allah they will fight to get it back.
    Fast forward another generation …
    I don't see an endgame. There is too much religion involved.

    Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 179 by Percy, posted 11-14-2023 8:38 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 181 by Percy, posted 11-14-2023 11:29 AM AZPaul3 has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024