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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22550
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 211 of 358 (913640)
11-25-2023 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
11-24-2023 3:23 PM


Re: Rinse and Repeat Globally
Phat writes:
It was an analogy between Iran and Gaza. Iran was once pro-Western, as is Israel. The poor saw Western influence as a negative, partly due to religious indoctrination and partly due to the economic reality. The Shah was seen as helping the West as much or more than the marginalized in Iran. It is much the same with Gaza. The reason Hamas came to power is because the poor were and are marginalized.
I don't see any analog between the Shah, a western puppet, and anything in Gaza, and even there were, it wouldn't be a response to emphasizing that Israel's current slaughter of civilians is breeding future terrorists.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 11-24-2023 3:23 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22550
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 212 of 358 (913641)
11-25-2023 8:09 AM


The Evidence of Israeli War Crimes Grows
From Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Killed at Historic Pace - The New York Times is a graph of the growing death toll in Gaza that includes women and children:
The article says that "the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century." We must make it clear to Israel, and clear to America and clear to the world, that we want no part of this. Their campaign against Hamas must include recognition of human rights and the rules of war.
It does not appear that the numbers are inflated, but even if they were, even if it were by an order of magnitude inflated to ten times greater, 1400 civilian deaths is still horrific. If the 14,000 number is accurate then it is just beyond the pale.
--Percy

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18383
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 213 of 358 (913642)
11-25-2023 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Percy
11-24-2023 3:15 PM


Re: How the World Sees Us
Percy writes:
We must tell Israel in no uncertain terms and in a way the whole world can hear that we cannot support them while they are committing war crimes.

The loss of Israel would be a serious blow. Israel helps anchor our presence in the Middle East and has been a net positive for our foreign policy in the region.
Let's get one thing clear. Israel will NEVER cease to exist. They have over 100 Nukes and would not hesitate to use them if their existence were threatened.
ADD BY EDIT:
BBC:

Hamas delays hostage release, accusing Israel of breaking truce deal
  • Hamas has announced it is delaying the release of further Israeli hostages
  • A statement by its military wing says Israel has broken the terms of the truce deal - a claim that Israel has denied
  • A Hamas official told the BBC that Israel had stopped 97 aid trucks from reaching northern Gaza, and also flew drones over southern Gaza
  • I don't see only Israel as the villain, even though due to a masterful propaganda campaign, Hamas is portraying itself as the victim.
    This latest move is calculated to enrage Israel and at the same time garner more public global support for Hamas, who are terrorists pure and simple. If any charges of war crimes are to be leveled, they will be shared by both sides. Hamas uses civilian casualties to further their cause. I fully agree with Israel at this point. hamas should be totally eliminated.
    This is war. It is not some bleeding heart game of "be nice and play fair".
    And World War III will likely erupt from this. Sad to say.
    The problem is only growing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by Percy, posted 11-24-2023 3:15 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18383
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 214 of 358 (913643)
    11-25-2023 2:19 PM


    According To Al Jazeera
    Lest anyone think that the media is not embroiled in a propaganda war, note the following reports from Al Jazeera.
    As Israel pounds Gaza, BBC journalists accuse broadcaster of bias
    Al Jazeera:
    London, United Kingdom – The BBC has been accused by its journalists of failing to tell the story of the Israel-Palestine conflict accurately, investing greater effort in humanising Israeli victims compared with Palestinians, and omitting key historical context in coverage.
    In a 2,300-word letter written to Al Jazeera by eight UK-based journalists employed by the corporation, the BBC is also said to be guilty of a “double standard in how civilians are seen”, given that it is “unflinching” in its reporting of alleged Russian war crimes in Ukraine.
    (...) Rights groups and hundreds of thousands of protesters worldwide, outraged by the soaring Palestinian death toll in Gaza, have called for a ceasefire.
    The war has also divided newsrooms globally, with disagreements over how each side is being portrayed, the allegedly unequal level of empathy shown to Israeli and Palestinian victims, and the use of language.

    The media is supposed to be unbiased, right?
    I feel that Israel is not the sole villain. They are killing civilians in excessive amounts, but they may feel that in many cases it is the only way to also kill the Hamas fighters hiding among them. And I feel that Hamas knows this. They know what they are doing and how it will play out in public opinion. Hamas is an ideological symbol and its leaders include the common people as part of Hamas. Hamas is like a cancer. In order to target the cancer, the patient is also weakened. Does anyone expect Israel to abandon their plan to eliminate Hamas?

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18383
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 215 of 358 (913644)
    11-25-2023 2:45 PM


    A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    As I pause to read what I have written, I realize that I am reacting emotionally to media coverage rather than responding rationally. This war is frustrating, but in a larger context, I see a parallel with my reaction (earlier) to the shoplifters. To be honest, I don't think that Hamas should exist any more than I think shoplifters should be allowed in the stores.
    I honestly admit that my behavior is light years away from where Jesus would want me to be. At the same time, I do not think that Percy, or nwr, or Tangle is being any more Christlike by suggesting that we allow them to have their way.
    Percy mentioned that these wars are indirectly our wars. (US) Just as you don't cure shoplifting by giving a guy a house, you don't cure war by giving Hamas a country and rebuilding what you broke. The ideology must change.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 216 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2023 3:05 PM Phat has replied
     Message 219 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 9:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9521
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 5.3


    Message 216 of 358 (913645)
    11-25-2023 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
    11-25-2023 2:45 PM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    Phat:
    I do not think that Percy, or nwr, or Tangle is being any more Christlike by suggesting that we allow them to have their way.
    Who said they should be allowed to have their own way? If I owned that store I'd arm y'all with pump actioned shotguns, put airport screening on all exits and barriers on the car park. But it's not mine or your store is it?

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine.

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 215 by Phat, posted 11-25-2023 2:45 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 217 by Phat, posted 11-25-2023 3:34 PM Tangle has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18383
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 217 of 358 (913646)
    11-25-2023 3:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 216 by Tangle
    11-25-2023 3:05 PM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    Neither is Israel my nor your country. Nor is Palestine.
    We get mad at shoplifters because they take material goods and raise prices for everyone else. What irks me is that they have no right--no entitlement to do so. And they steal that right.
    Hamas took the entitlement of peace away from all of us. They use their own civilians in some higher ideological cause of freedom and entitlement to a country.
    They won't get it by attacking Israel, nor will shoplifters get their chance and hope by stealing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 216 by Tangle, posted 11-25-2023 3:05 PM Tangle has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 218 by nwr, posted 11-25-2023 5:41 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 6414
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005


    (2)
    Message 218 of 358 (913647)
    11-25-2023 5:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
    11-25-2023 3:34 PM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    Phat in Message 217 writes:
    We get mad at shoplifters because they take material goods and raise prices for everyone else.
    That's not quite right. It is the store owners who raise prices.
    Yes, shoplifters raise the cost of doing business. But changing how you do business so as to discourage shoplifting, would also raise prices. Presumably the store owners have looked at their options.
    I'll agree with Tangle, that I am not suggesting the shoplifters should have their way. Rather, I'm suggesting that you should stop getting angry about it. It is a problem for the store owners to resolve. It isn't your personal problem. We live in a complex world with lots of different people who have different ideas. You can't control what they all think.
    As for Hamas and Israel -- I am not supporting Hamas. But I also cannot support the way that Israel is currently handling it. As Percy says, the way Israel has been dealing with it will only breed the next group of terrorists.
    I don't have a magic solution to the middle east problem. There are no easy solutions.

    Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 217 by Phat, posted 11-25-2023 3:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22550
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 219 of 358 (913652)
    11-26-2023 9:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 215 by Phat
    11-25-2023 2:45 PM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    Phat in Message 215 writes:
    I honestly admit that my behavior is light years away from where Jesus would want me to be. At the same time, I do not think that Percy, or nwr, or Tangle is being any more Christlike by suggesting that we allow them to have their way.
    You have these crazy ideas bouncing around in your head, probably from YouTube videos, that you then randomly attribute to us. No one here has suggested letting Hamas have their way. That's all you, not any of us. Own your crazy ideas and leave us out of them.
    I'm also not trying to be Christlike. I can't recall nwr's or Tangle's specific beliefs at the moment, but my own are that he is fictional and that the whole religious infrastructure built around him is a human construct. I have absolutely no desire to be Christlike. He absolutely never even enters my thoughts, not once, except when I am contributing to threads like this, or when the JW's or Mormons knock on my door, or back in the old days when I thought seeing what their Book actually said would make a difference to Christians. Christian apologetics is the process of developing excuses for the differences between the Book and actual practice.
    Percy mentioned that these wars are indirectly our wars. (US) Just as you don't cure shoplifting by giving a guy a house, you don't cure war by giving Hamas a country and rebuilding what you broke. The ideology must change.
    I don't know what you mean when you say the ideology must change, but certainly the way Israel deals with Palestinians under its control must change.
    And it is the Palestinians that should have a country, not Hamas.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 215 by Phat, posted 11-25-2023 2:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 221 by marc9000, posted 11-27-2023 2:38 PM Percy has replied

      
    marc9000
    Member
    Posts: 1522
    From: Ky U.S.
    Joined: 12-25-2009
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 220 of 358 (913673)
    11-27-2023 2:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 213 by Phat
    11-25-2023 8:20 AM


    Re: How the World Sees Us
    Let's get one thing clear. Israel will NEVER cease to exist. They have over 100 Nukes and would not hesitate to use them if their existence were threatened.
    I don't think it's clear. Their existence is threatened right now. If Iran sucker punches them with a nuke that destroys a significant percentage of their country, they would never be able to recover from it, financially or otherwise.
    Israel's very existence is far more threatened now than the U.S. existence was in August of 1945, the U.S. had recently defeated Germany, and is geographically isolated in a way that Israel is not. Israel is far more justified in wasting some civilian life to defeat their enemy, far more than Truman / Democrats were in wasting somewhere between 129,000 and 226,000 Japanese civilians in 1945.
    Unlike Hamas and other terrorists, Israel never openly celebrates their enemy's dead civilians. Same as the U.S. in 1945. I believe they'll do the right thing.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 213 by Phat, posted 11-25-2023 8:20 AM Phat has not replied

      
    marc9000
    Member
    Posts: 1522
    From: Ky U.S.
    Joined: 12-25-2009
    Member Rating: 1.4


    (1)
    Message 221 of 358 (913674)
    11-27-2023 2:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
    11-26-2023 9:27 AM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    You have these crazy ideas bouncing around in your head, probably from YouTube videos, that you then randomly attribute to us. No one here has suggested letting Hamas have their way. That's all you, not any of us. Own your crazy ideas and leave us out of them.
    I think he has a better understanding of the word conflict than you do. Most definitions of that word include the term "two", as in TWO opposing forces. When you show opposition to one, you show favor to the other, however slight. It's difficult to have a debate with someone who takes a neutral, lofty middle ground with no defining characteristics. If you constantly harp on how terrible Israel treats Palestinians, or how terrible Israel's current war crimes are, repeating talking points of Hamas, then you ARE suggesting letting Hamas have their way. Unless you can come up with a different suggestion for Israel, that would as effectively, or more effectively, defeat Hamas. But you never seem to do that.
    I don't know what you mean when you say the ideology must change, but certainly the way Israel deals with Palestinians under its control must change.
    Do you have a position on that, a position that Hamas wouldn't celebrate?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 219 by Percy, posted 11-26-2023 9:27 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 222 by Percy, posted 11-28-2023 7:52 AM marc9000 has replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22550
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.7


    (4)
    Message 222 of 358 (913680)
    11-28-2023 7:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 221 by marc9000
    11-27-2023 2:38 PM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    marc9000 writes:
    When you show opposition to one, you show favor to the other, however slight.
    I've been pretty clear on this. I'm against atrocities and crimes against humanity, no matter who commits them, but having atrocities committed against you doesn't give you the right to commit atrocities back.
    If you constantly harp on how terrible Israel treats Palestinians, or how terrible Israel's current war crimes are, repeating talking points of Hamas, then you ARE suggesting letting Hamas have their way.
    I've also been pretty clear on this. Israel is its own worst enemy as it creates successive generations of terrorists through its maltreatment of the Palestinian people under its control.
    Unless you can come up with a different suggestion for Israel, that would as effectively, or more effectively, defeat Hamas. But you never seem to do that.
    I have no answers for the conundrum in which Israel has placed itself, and us, too, through our support and close political affiliation with them. We have tolerated unacceptable Israeli policies against the Palestinians for literally generations when we should have been making clear to Israel that they must stop if they want out continued support.
    What Israel is doing now, committing war crimes, is even worse, and we shouldn't be aligning ourselves with or assisting countries in the midst of committing war crimes.
    I don't know what you mean when you say the ideology must change, but certainly the way Israel deals with Palestinians under its control must change.
    Do you have a position on that, a position that Hamas wouldn't celebrate?
    I've been very clear on this, too. Israel must cease its maltreatment of Palestinians, something the whole world would celebrate, not just Hamas. That would entail Israel ceasing to support and encourage settler appropriation of Palestinian property on the West Bank, ceasing the retaliatory destruction of Palestinian houses, and ceasing treating Palestinians the same as the South treated blacks under Jim Crow.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 221 by marc9000, posted 11-27-2023 2:38 PM marc9000 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 223 by Phat, posted 11-29-2023 8:08 AM Percy has replied
     Message 225 by marc9000, posted 11-29-2023 4:32 PM Percy has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18383
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 223 of 358 (913687)
    11-29-2023 8:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 222 by Percy
    11-28-2023 7:52 AM


    To The Victors Go The Spoils
    Israel will have to try really hard to lose this war. That fact might eventually happen in the court of public opinion. The Palestinian cause is boosted by an outstanding public relations campaign.
    Percy writes:
    I'm against atrocities and crimes against humanity, no matter who commits them, but having atrocities committed against you doesn't give you the right to commit atrocities back. (...) Israel is its own worst enemy as it creates successive generations of terrorists through its maltreatment of the Palestinian people under its control.
    Only Israel can fix Israel. If they, as a people, focus on healing their national soul, they may become repentant. I agree that one must turn the other cheek in regard to the Palestinians. One question is: Who will pay to reconstruct Palestine?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 222 by Percy, posted 11-28-2023 7:52 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 224 by Percy, posted 11-29-2023 12:48 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22550
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.7


    Message 224 of 358 (913689)
    11-29-2023 12:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 223 by Phat
    11-29-2023 8:08 AM


    Re: To The Victors Go The Spoils
    Phat writes:
    Israel will have to try really hard to lose this war.
    It's less a war and more just ongoing hostilities with peaks and valleys of intensity.
    That fact might eventually happen in the court of public opinion.
    Israel lost years ago in the court of public opinion. All they're doing now is confirming people's judgments.
    The Palestinian cause is boosted by an outstanding public relations campaign.
    No public relations campaign necessary. Just point a camera.
    Only Israel can fix Israel. If they, as a people, focus on healing their national soul, they may become repentant.
    No repentance necessary. All Israel need do is cease mistreating and committing atrocities against the Palestinian people.
    I agree that one must turn the other cheek in regard to the Palestinians.
    I never suggested Israel should turn the other cheek. They have every right to defend themselves, but only in ways that are not war crimes.
    One question is: Who will pay to reconstruct Palestine?
    The Palestinians themselves and their benefactors will pay, such as Iran.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 223 by Phat, posted 11-29-2023 8:08 AM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 226 by marc9000, posted 11-29-2023 4:44 PM Percy has replied

      
    marc9000
    Member
    Posts: 1522
    From: Ky U.S.
    Joined: 12-25-2009
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 225 of 358 (913691)
    11-29-2023 4:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 222 by Percy
    11-28-2023 7:52 AM


    Re: A Reflection Of My Own Wicked Heart
    marc9000 writes:
    When you show opposition to one, you show favor to the other, however slight.

    I've been pretty clear on this. I'm against atrocities and crimes against humanity, no matter who commits them, but having atrocities committed against you doesn't give you the right to commit atrocities back.
    You've only been clear on what you want Israel to NOT do, you haven't been clear on what Israel could do to lessen the chances that they won't be terrorized again.
    quote:
    Atrocity, atrocious; extremely or shockingly wicked, cruel, or brutal:
    an atrocious crime.
    shockingly bad or tasteless; dreadful; abominable:
    an atrocious painting; atrocious manners.
    ATROCIOUS Definition & Usage Examples | Dictionary.com
    Different people would have different definitions of just what atrocities, or war crimes are, depending on what the perpetrator is initiating, or responding to. If Harry Truman for example, would have bombed a country, killing 200,000 people because of a simple economic dispute, it would have been much more of a war crime than what his reason for bombing Japan actually was, to end a brutal 2 1/2 year war, initiated by Japan with Pearl Harbor. It worked.
    What Hamas did on October 7th, was a war crime, an atrocity. A Harry Truman style response is the only thing that works. No one including you thinks that Israel suddenly making nice with Hamas is going to lessen the chances of another atrocity against them by Hamas. Using force, killing leaders, is the only thing that has ever historically worked to end wars.
    I've also been pretty clear on this. Israel is its own worst enemy as it creates successive generations of terrorists through its maltreatment of the Palestinian people under its control.
    Israel will also create successive generations of terrorists if it lets current ones terrorize it. Palestine and other Arab countries have made a sport of hating Israel for thousands of years. Israel suddenly making nice for weeks or months isn't going to stop the hate against them. Showing current terrorists that it's easy to terrorize won't be as detrimental as showing future terrorists that becoming a terrorist isn't a good career move, if all their predecessors become dead. Most terrorists don't want to become dead, a few suicide ones do, but they want their demise to be on their own terms.
    Hitler became dead, Mussolini became dead, Yamamoto (architect of Pearl Harbor) became dead. No one seemed eager to step up and replace them.
    I have no answers for the conundrum in which Israel has placed itself...
    So Israel is 100% at fault for October 7th?
    I've been very clear on this, too. Israel must cease its maltreatment of Palestinians, something the whole world would celebrate, not just Hamas. That would entail Israel ceasing to support and encourage settler appropriation of Palestinian property on the West Bank, ceasing the retaliatory destruction of Palestinian houses, and ceasing treating Palestinians the same as the South treated blacks under Jim Crow.
    Israel should just be nice then? That will cause the whole Muslim world to stop chanting "from the river to the sea"? It will increase terrorism against them.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 222 by Percy, posted 11-28-2023 7:52 AM Percy has replied

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