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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 301 of 378 (917975)
04-20-2024 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Theodoric
04-20-2024 7:49 PM


When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Has not happened yet.
Multiple threads are open where the analysis is critical to determining what happens and what happened.
Including threads about our entire universe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 7:49 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 8:48 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 302 of 378 (917976)
04-20-2024 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 8:31 PM


Re: LNA continues to troll
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. Still wondering about those letters you put together to make what you thought was a word.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 8:31 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 303 of 378 (917977)
04-20-2024 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 8:35 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Still have no idea what you are talking about. When did I brag about using bayesian analysis?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 8:35 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 9:52 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 305 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 9:56 PM Theodoric has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 304 of 378 (917978)
04-20-2024 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Theodoric
04-20-2024 8:48 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Right before I quoted an ancient text that Richard Carrier said was:
"evidence for historicity" of Jesus.
You kept refusing to apply Bayesian Analysis.
So I quoted Carriers conclusion, which was based on an analysis in his book OHJ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 8:48 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2024 12:21 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 305 of 378 (917979)
04-20-2024 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Theodoric
04-20-2024 8:48 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
There is a thread that I just started which uses Bayesian Analysis, of experts, to score the odds of the accuracy if a theory of the first cause for the origin of our entire universe
So get to work on shooting down the analysis and the theory itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 04-20-2024 8:48 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-20-2024 10:17 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 312 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2024 12:22 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 306 of 378 (917980)
04-20-2024 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 9:56 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Who the fuck put you in charge?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 9:56 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 10:39 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 307 of 378 (917981)
04-20-2024 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tanypteryx
04-20-2024 10:17 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Tell the asshole to stop making hateful posts.
He said that I wanted Palestinians of Gaza expelled.
He said I wanted to steal homes from Egyptians of the Sinai Peninsula.
(I responded politely, and simply pointed out that I wanted Gazans to have at least 5000 square miles of land)
(I also called for public works projects to build the greater Gaza area & end unemployment)
He then (in his subsequent post) called me a troll.
He is a vile puke if a sorry creature at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-20-2024 10:17 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-20-2024 10:50 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 308 of 378 (917982)
04-20-2024 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 10:39 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
You show up here and smear indecipherable graffiti in your own shit all over the whole forum and you demand obedience?
Go fuck yourself you rude arrogant asshole!

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 10:39 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 11:01 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 309 of 378 (917983)
04-20-2024 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tanypteryx
04-20-2024 10:50 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
So lies are allowed.
He knows Israel is always being accused (falsely or not)of genocide, ethnic cleansing, land grabs, etc.
So he identified me as a supporter of Israel, and then accused me.
My actual words are allowed to be twisted into anything Theodoric wants to accuse me of!
Disgusting.
Absolutely disgusting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-20-2024 10:50 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-20-2024 11:04 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 313 by Theodoric, posted 04-21-2024 12:24 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4500
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 310 of 378 (917984)
04-20-2024 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 11:01 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Boohoo!
ABE:
LamarkNewAge in Message 309 writes:
My actual words are allowed to be twisted into anything Theodoric wants to accuse me of!
Your actual words seem to be written by someone with severe mental illness, and many of us cannot understand a single point you are trying to make.
They are disjointed angry rants that seem mostly unrelated to the actual subjects.
You seem to think you are the most informed person on the planet on every possible subject, but most of us remember being attacked for any comments we made about your lack of clarity, so you will find few here who support you or who want to engage in your delusions.
LamarkNewAge in Message 309 writes:
Disgusting.

Absolutely disgusting.
The real mystery is why you would possibly want to participate here at EvC.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 11:01 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 311 of 378 (917985)
04-21-2024 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 9:52 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
link? Source?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 9:52 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 312 of 378 (917986)
04-21-2024 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 9:56 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Link? Source?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 9:56 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9272
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 313 of 378 (917987)
04-21-2024 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by LamarkNewAge
04-20-2024 11:01 PM


Re: When are you going to apply Bayesian Analysis, like you bragged about?
Still have no idea what you are going on about. More trolling?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up, why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-20-2024 11:01 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10155
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 314 of 378 (918073)
04-22-2024 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Rahvin
04-19-2024 8:05 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Rahvin writes:
Military action in civilian locations are a terrible idea. The actual military targets just fade away into the populace. What you wind up doing is just killing and oppressing civilians...justifying every word that your opposition uses as recruitment.
In the same way, do the Hamas attacks justify what Israel is doing? Are the Hamas attacks bringing more recruits to Israel's side?
The solution therefore is to....not oppress Palestinians.
How was Israel oppressing Gaza before the attack that killed thousands of Israeli's?
There were no Israeli's in Gaza. Gaza had complete autonomy within their own borders, and they had been given massive amounts of aid to build infrastructure and a country of their own. What Israeli attacks did happen were in retaliation for rockets that Hamas sends over the border.
What Israel should be doing is seeking reconciliation, not genocide. Palestinians have absolutely legitimate grievances against Israel, stemming all the way before the Israeli state was formed from their literal backyards. Stop the checkpoints. Stop the settlements (which are already in violation of multiple international agreements). Either recognize a Palestinian state according to the pre-1960s borders, or grant Palestinians full recognition and citizenship under Israeli law along with the "right of return." Severely punish Israeli citizens and military personnel who abuse and murder Palestinians. Investigate such actions in good faith. Stop indefinitely imprisoning Palestinians without charges.
There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza as of 2007. There were no Israeli's at all in Gaza when the Hamas attacks occurred last October. Gaza was under 100% Palestinian authority, and Hamas was and is their chosen government.
The Palenstinians have also been offered a two state solution multiple times, and they have turned it down time after time after time.
So why aren't you as adamant for Palestinians to seek reconciliation?
I'm going to make the assumption that you've watched Star Trek: Deeps Space Nine. Most of us are nerds here of the appropriate generations, I dont think it's an unsafe assumption.

Major Kira was a terrorist against Cardassian occupation. She did evil, very bad things. Murdered people, including their families. She did those things because she didnt have a lot of choices - the Cardassians were massacring her people and using them for slave labor and worse. Her own mother was a "comfort woman" for the Cardassian equivalent of Hitler, and while the specifics were complicated, she wasn't consenting.
None of this was happening in Gaza. Gaza was under 100% Palestinian rule. In fact, it was against the law in Gaza for an Israeli to even walk the streets in Gaza.
So what more was Israel to do? There were no settlements in Gaza. They offered a two state solution multiple times. Israel only retaliated when fired upon. Israel tried it your way, from all appearances.
Added in edit:
3 out of 4 Palestinians support the Oct. 7 attack that killed thousands of Israeli's.
quote:
Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
reuters.com
How does Israel reconcile with a group where 75% support the slaughter of your people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Rahvin, posted 04-19-2024 8:05 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2024 1:42 PM Taq has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 315 of 378 (918294)
04-25-2024 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Taq
04-22-2024 10:53 AM


Re: In Your Own Words
In the same way, do the Hamas attacks justify what Israel is doing? Are the Hamas attacks bringing more recruits to Israel's side?
The justification is in the eyes of the populace, not external observers. When Israel bombs a neighborhood, the people who survive in the rubble are now more sympathetic to any opposition to Israel, including Hamas, regardless of whether Hamas poked the bear.
The second part is a little complicated - probably not in this case, actually, since Israel already has compulsory military service. But in general, yes absolutely it does increase recruitment for the other side. Look at the US back after 9/11 - US military recruitment grew significantly.
But the value of recruitment is just as asymmetrical as the forces involved, and it's not only about direct fighter recruitment. Remember, terrorism (also called "asymmetric warfare") is a PR campaign with violence. The smaller force needs recruitment more than the larger force. The smaller force needs increasing sympathy and support from allies more than the larger force. The smaller force hopes to gain international support in the form of sanctions, possible military intervention, etc. The larger force is already the larger force.
How was Israel oppressing Gaza before the attack that killed thousands of Israeli's?
"Thousands" is misleading.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths:
The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.
Just over 1000. "Thousands" is is a weasel-word that implies more "balance" in loss between the Hamas attack vs Israel's military action. ~1100 is not the same as 34000+. It's not remotely the same. And let's be very clear - when you ask "what was Israel to do?", the answer is most emphatically not to kill 30000+ civilians, mostly women and children, by indiscriminately bombing civilian residences, constantly attacking and rendering inoperative all hospitals, destroying schools, using snipers to shoot clear noncombatants like women and children, etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/20/gaza-death-toll-passes-34000-israel-iran:
The death toll from Israel’s war on Gaza climbed to more than 34,000 on Saturday, with the majority of victims women and children, including at least six killed by an overnight airstrike on a house in Rafah.
But as for the oppression of Gaza, that depends on where you want to start.
Israel has been oppressing specifically Gaza and the West Bank since the 60s.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/:
n Gaza, more than 2 million Palestinians live under an Israeli blockade which has created a humanitarian crisis. It is near-impossible for Gazans to travel abroad or into the rest of the OPT, and they are effectively segregated from the rest of the world.
quote:
"For Palestinians, the difficulty of travelling within and in and out of the OPT is a constant reminder of their powerlessness. Their every move is subject to the Israeli military’s approval, and the simplest daily task means navigating a web of violent control."
-Agnès Callamard
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942:
Israel’s occupation is illegal and indistinguishable from a “settler-colonial” situation, which must end, as a pre-condition for Palestinians to exercise their right to self-determination, the UN’s independent expert on the occupied Palestinian territory said on Thursday.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip:
A blockade has been imposed on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip since Hamas's takeover in 2007, led by Israel and supported by Egypt.
Israel also has a practice of arresting Palestinians and holding them, typically in brutal conditions, without charges indefinitely. Often Palestinians die in custody...with no investigations or consequences.
That was all before Oct 7 2023. It's far worse now. Sure, it's a "war," but lets just focus on the war crimes.
I've seen videos of Israeli soldiers laughing as they demolish residential structures.
I've seen videos of Israeli soldiers bragging about raping underaged Gazan girls.
I've seen Israeli's using captured Gazans as literal human shields, tying them to their vehicles.
I've seen videos obviously staged by Israelis where they force Gazans to strip to underwear but for some reason still have them hold IDs and firearms and then parade them around to "surrender" their weapons.
I've seen Gazans forced to kneel in their underwear and then be executed by bullets to the head. Reminded me of Schindler's List.
I've seen Israeli bulldozers drive over living injured Gazans who were camped outside a hospital, waiting for or recovering from treatment.
I've seen Israeli propaganda claim that a dry-erase board contained some organizational Hamas information....and it was just a literal calendar in Arabic, a schedule for some hospital personnel.
The full ICJ genocide application/report is well worth the read. The factual section starts on page 9. Remember that this was filed months ago, the situation is worse now.
quote:
By 29 October 2023
alone, it was estimated that 6,000 bombs per week had been dropped on the tiny enclave.50 In just over
two months, Israel’s military attacks had “wreaked more destruction than the razing of Syria’s Aleppo
between 2012 and 2016, Ukraine’s Mariupol, or proportionally, the Allied bombing of Germany in
World War II.”
quote:
More than half of all homes have been destroyed. Some
80 per cent of the population of 2.2 million has been forcibly displaced, into increasingly
smaller areas
quote:
Until 2005, Gaza — like the West Bank today — was occupied by Israeli military forces on the
ground. However, in 2005, Israel unilaterally ‘disengaged’ from Gaza, dismantling its military bases
and relocating Israeli settlers from settlements in Gaza back to Israel and into the occupied West Bank.85
Notwithstanding its ‘disengagement’, Israel continues to exercise control over the airspace, territorial
waters, land crossings, water, electricity, electromagnetic sphere and civilian infrastructure in Gaza,86
as well as over key governmental functions, such as the management of the Palestinian population
registry for Gaza.87 Given that continuing effective control by Israel over the territory, Gaza is still
considered by the international community to be under belligerent occupation by Israel.88 The near total
control exercised by Israel over access to Gaza, and over its water, fuel, electricity and food supplies,
has been demonstrated starkly since 7 October 2023
quote:
Israel’s parallel implementation of a wide buffer zone inside Gaza’s eastern border fence
(estimated to restrict access to approximately 24 per cent of Gaza) severely impacts internal food
supply, by reducing the main agricultural area for farming.97 Israel also made fishing extremely
hazardous for Palestinians, who have not had full access to the fishing zone of 20 nautical miles
stipulated in the Oslo Accords — interim agreements concluded between the PLO and Israel in the early
1990s. The naval blockade — policed by Israeli forces through the use of force, arrests and the
confiscation of fishing equipment — severely reduced the fishing catchment area for Gaza’s fishermen 16
to polluted waters immediately off the coastline, leading to overfishing impacting sustainability.98 As
long ago as 2015, the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (‘UNCTAD’) warned that
the restrictive measures imposed by Israel risked Gaza becoming uninhabitable by 2020.99
quote:
Between 29 September 2000 and 7 October 2023, approximately 7,569 Palestinians,102
including 1,699 children,103 were killed, including in those “four highly asymmetrical wars”, as well as
other smaller military assaults, with tens of thousands of others injured
quote:
The Commission found that there were reasonable grounds to believe that Israeli snipers
“intentionally shot” children, knowing them to be children,114 and they also “intentionally shot” health
workers and journalists “despite seeing that they were clearly marked as such”.115 It further found
“reasonable grounds to believe” that Israeli snipers shot disabled demonstrators “intentionally, despite
seeing that they had visible disabilities” and despite them not presenting an imminent threat.
I cant even raise all the highlights. It would be too long. Read the report, seriously. A lot of the actions do not get reported with prominence or at all in common Western media.
So why aren't you as adamant for Palestinians to seek reconciliation?
I am, actually, but the Palestinians right now have zero power. They have no negotiation leverage outside of pointing out war crimes and death tolls, they have no significant military power, they cannot offer a significant threat to Israel. Meanwhile Israel has effective impunity when it comes to enforcing any amount of control or force over Gaza. Only Israel can stop attacking so that the prelude for reconciliation can even start.
I brought up Ireland for a lot of reasons. Among them is that the peace is not a happy one. If peace is ever reached between Israel and Palestine, it will be in a way that makes neither side happy, but that both sides can live with. And it will likely require international forces to help hold it together (forces that cannot contain Americans or several other nations) because of the extreme justified distrust on both sides of the conflict. A peace that everybody hates but hates less than dead babies, and that sets the stage for gradually reduced tensions and eventual reconciliation decades and generations from now. There is no signature on a piece of paper that will undo generations of violence and fear and hate.
None of this was happening in Gaza. Gaza was under 100% Palestinian rule. In fact, it was against the law in Gaza for an Israeli to even walk the streets in Gaza.
Fiction is not a direct analog to reality. The situations are similar, not identical. The similarities are around the complexities and nuance around asymmetric warfare, terrorism, freedom fighting, and what comes after. Not the specifics of the crimes (there was no forced dilithium mining; Hamas doesn't set bombs in Israeli officials' homes, etc...). But it's not uncommon, as I referenced with Sinn Fein in Ireland, for yesterday's terrorist/freedom fighter to be tomorrow's political leader.
There are reasons that Hamas won elections in Gaza. Those reasons don't excuse war crimes. There is a major difference between a reason and an excuse. There are reasons Israeli sentiments toward Palestinians are so hateful - some of those reasons are racist, others colonialist, but others are simply the result of decades and generations of mutual violence and fear and propaganda. Reasons are not justifications.
3 out of 4 Palestinians support the Oct. 7 attack that killed thousands of Israeli's.
Sure. Just like the vast majority of Israelis support the intentional war crimes being committed by the Israeli military. Their most popular news station just days ago had a commenter rant about how the Gazans all, down to the children, deserve "hard deaths" and there should be "rivers of blood."
This is what hate does. It makes people support bloody vengeance. It's a natural reaction that affects everyone involved. It's also an instinct that needs to be resisted.
How does Israel reconcile with a group where 75% support the slaughter of your people?
The same way Palestinians reconcile with a group who support the extermination of theirs.
With difficulty. And mostly with atrocity exhaustion. Things can sometimes get so unbearably bad that there can be a narrow window for enduring peace. That's what happened in Ireland.
So what more was Israel to do? There were no settlements in Gaza. They offered a two state solution multiple times. Israel only retaliated when fired upon. Israel tried it your way, from all appearances.
Israel was not to commit war crimes. Israel was not to attack civilians and civilian infrastructure.
Israel had a lot of alternatives available. The best ones would have been alternative actions before Oct 7. Afterward, they should have focused on hostage retrieval and offered a path to peace. It doesnt matter if Israel would have "looked weak" or whatever. It doesnt matter if "the terrorists would have won." Peace would have meant that everyone could win. Peace meaning a recognition of an actual Palestinian state and good-faith efforts to set the stage for long-term reconciliation.
And if Hamas refused, you still have special forces and other routes to follow that aren't dropping unguided 2000 pound bombs on civilians. You now have more leverage in the international community and have denied Hamas their real victory - Hamas looks like the unequivocal "bad guys," because at that moment they were even if the reasons for their crimes are more complex.
When peace offers are rejected, the answer is not to just give up, ramp up rhetoric and get more violent. The answer is to keep going and work in good faith until an agreement is actually reached.
The answer, and this is key, is never to commit war crimes, never to kill 30,000+ civilians. You might as well say "yeah they committed rape, what else could they do?" Their actual actions are on the same unjustifiable, reprehensible level. And YES Hamas does things that are just as bad on the scale they're capable of, but the scale is due to the amount of relative power each side has, and you'll note that Hamas has very little. Israel is holding all the cards, and they choose to make Hamas, who are also in large part bad guys (not all of Hamas are fighters), sympathetic internationally and to the Palestinian people.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
1 Corinthians 15:26King James Version (KJV)

-->Nihil supernum --> -->


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Taq, posted 04-22-2024 10:53 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Taq, posted 04-25-2024 3:28 PM Rahvin has replied

  
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