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Author Topic:   Israel Declares War For The First Time Since 1973.
Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 316 of 378 (918305)
04-25-2024 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Rahvin
04-25-2024 1:42 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Rahvin writes:
The justification is in the eyes of the populace, not external observers. When Israel bombs a neighborhood, the people who survive in the rubble are now more sympathetic to any opposition to Israel, including Hamas, regardless of whether Hamas poked the bear.

The second part is a little complicated - probably not in this case, actually, since Israel already has compulsory military service. But in general, yes absolutely it does increase recruitment for the other side. Look at the US back after 9/11 - US military recruitment grew significantly.

But the value of recruitment is just as asymmetrical as the forces involved, and it's not only about direct fighter recruitment. Remember, terrorism (also called "asymmetric warfare") is a PR campaign with violence. The smaller force needs recruitment more than the larger force. The smaller force needs increasing sympathy and support from allies more than the larger force. The smaller force hopes to gain international support in the form of sanctions, possible military intervention, etc. The larger force is already the larger force.
The asymmetry I am seeing is that Hamas can apparently do whatever they want, and they are justified in doing so for whatever reason. Israel responds to thousands of its citizens being killed in a terrorist attack, and everyone clutches their pearls.
At the same time, I will fully agree that how Israel carries out the removal of Hamas from Gaza is very, very important. I do think they could have done it differently, just as many US military actions could have been carried out in a more ethical and moral manner. The hard part is that there is nowhere for Palestinians to go. The US levelled Fallujah to get rid of ISIS, but at least the citizens could escape the city.
Just over 1000. "Thousands" is is a weasel-word that implies more "balance" in loss between the Hamas attack vs Israel's military action. ~1100 is not the same as 34000+. It's not remotely the same. And let's be very clear - when you ask "what was Israel to do?", the answer is most emphatically not to kill 30000+ civilians, mostly women and children, by indiscriminately bombing civilian residences, constantly attacking and rendering inoperative all hospitals, destroying schools, using snipers to shoot clear noncombatants like women and children, etc.
Do you think some sort of military incursion was justified?
Israel has been oppressing specifically Gaza and the West Bank since the 60s.
Hamas was sending suicide bombers across the border, so Israel closed the border. There were no Israeli's in Gaza. What happened in Gaza is the responsibility of Palestinians. They had aid money coming in, but what did they do? Instead of using the money for infrastructure and improving Gaza they used it for terrorism, and to line the pockets of Hamas leaders. Israel didn't do that.
Israel had a lot of alternatives available. The best ones would have been alternative actions before Oct 7. Afterward, they should have focused on hostage retrieval and offered a path to peace. It doesnt matter if Israel would have "looked weak" or whatever. It doesnt matter if "the terrorists would have won." Peace would have meant that everyone could win. Peace meaning a recognition of an actual Palestinian state and good-faith efforts to set the stage for long-term reconciliation.
What I find frustrating is that Israel is expected to do what no one expects the Palestinians to do. Hamas has sworn to rid all of Israel of Jews, the infamous "From the river to the sea" chant. This is part of Hamas' charter, plainly written out. People think that's fine. However, Israel is supposed to take it on the chin and absorb any and all terrorism. It just seems like there is a real asymmetry in expectations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2024 1:42 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2024 4:46 PM Taq has replied

  
Rahvin
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Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 317 of 378 (918311)
04-25-2024 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Taq
04-25-2024 3:28 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
You ignored the vast majority of my post, including the most important parts.
You seem to be replying to your personal view of people who support Palestinians, and not my actual words and expressed views.
I did not apologize for Hamas. I explicitly called them bad guys. The thing is, in a conflict like this, there are only bad guys and their victims.
Do you think some sort of military incursion was justified?
You cannot fight terrorism with military actions. There are literal textbooks on this. You can use military defenses like teh Iron Dome to protect against specific types of attacks, and you can use special forces/drones/other very targeted attacks to "reform" the leadership of a smaller force to make it less radical. But mass bombing and invasion do not and cannot work.
Hamas was sending suicide bombers across the border, so Israel closed the border. There were no Israeli's in Gaza. What happened in Gaza is the responsibility of Palestinians. They had aid money coming in, but what did they do? Instead of using the money for infrastructure and improving Gaza they used it for terrorism, and to line the pockets of Hamas leaders. Israel didn't do that.
Read the ICJ report, it contains source-cited factual details about the oppression of Gaza. You are misinformed.
What I find frustrating is that Israel is expected to do what no one expects the Palestinians to do. Hamas has sworn to rid all of Israel of Jews, the infamous "From the river to the sea" chant. This is part of Hamas' charter, plainly written out. People think that's fine. However, Israel is supposed to take it on the chin and absorb any and all terrorism. It just seems like there is a real asymmetry in expectations.
I find it frustrating when people defend an ongoing genocide.
I've explicitly answered the concerns you're raising, and you have ignored my points in their entirety, you simple repeat "but Hamas." That's not productive.
Please read the ICJ report and tell me which specific facts of Gazan oppression you dispute and why.
Please explain why you believe any action from any faction justifies the violence, intentional starvation, and other war crimes being actively committed right thi moment by Israel.
I'm 100% fine with sayimg Hamas are bad guys. I've said effectively that from the start - reality isnt black and white, the reasons are complicated, but they're doing unjustifiable bad things.
That does not and cannot justify even greater larger-scale crimes by Israel.
The Palestinian civilians, just like the Israeli citizens, do not deserve bombs or rape or imprisonment or hostage-taking. They're people. No voting choice or any possible action at all justifies this.
Why is it that Israel-apologists think that it's necessary to condemn Hamas with every utterance of an Israeli war crime? Why is it so hard to simply agree that killing civilians, NO MATTER WHAT, is unjustified and evil and should be stopped? Isn't that enough "both sides?" The numbers add up over 30x more evil for one side, with more to come from pending famine, but isn't the core idea that we have fucking empathy for other human beings and don't want to see them hurt/starve/die?
The civilians on Oct 7 didnt deserve to die or be captured.
The people of Gaza don't deserve what is currently happening to them.
The difference, other than scale, is that one is still happening and can be stopped, and only one side has the power to stop it.

-->“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Taq, posted 04-25-2024 3:28 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Taq, posted 04-26-2024 10:48 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 318 of 378 (918340)
04-26-2024 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Rahvin
04-25-2024 4:46 PM


Re: In Your Own Words
Rahvin writes:
I did not apologize for Hamas. I explicitly called them bad guys. The thing is, in a conflict like this, there are only bad guys and their victims.
I would also say that there are only bad choices and worse choices when it comes to how Israel should confront the violence that is being visited on them.
You cannot fight terrorism with military actions. There are literal textbooks on this. You can use military defenses like teh Iron Dome to protect against specific types of attacks, and you can use special forces/drones/other very targeted attacks to "reform" the leadership of a smaller force to make it less radical. But mass bombing and invasion do not and cannot work.
At what point is it no longer terrorism? When Germany invaded France (twice), was that terrorism? When a government entity is purchasing and launching missiles into your country, is that terrorism?
In my eyes, Hamas is not like Al Qaeda or ISIS. Hamas runs the government of Gaza. They are the government. They funnel aid money into weapons and military training.
And at what point is a population responsible for the actions of their government? Were Allied forces justified in bombing German cities during WW II?
Read the ICJ report, it contains source-cited factual details about the oppression of Gaza. You are misinformed.
That's fair. It appears that I was not informed of some of Israel's wrongdoings.
There is also the problem of aid money going towards weapons and military training in Gaza, not to mention the ongoing attacks by Hamas and every indication that they will never stop. The goal of Hamas is remove Jews from Israel, and no amount of relaxation of fishing waters or farmland is going to change that.
I find it frustrating when people defend an ongoing genocide.
It's not a genocide. If it was a genocide then Palestinians in the West Bank would be under attack right now. Israel is attacking Hamas. Hamas is not a race of people. If the Palestinians had rounded up the Hamas leadership and handed them over this would be done.
Please explain why you believe any action from any faction justifies the violence, intentional starvation, and other war crimes being actively committed right thi moment by Israel.
A country is justified in taking out a government that threatens and is actively attacking them.
Why is it that Israel-apologists think that it's necessary to condemn Hamas with every utterance of an Israeli war crime? Why is it so hard to simply agree that killing civilians, NO MATTER WHAT, is unjustified and evil and should be stopped?
One of the issues is that I don't know what can be believed in the reports. Many, many times there have been reports whose sole source is Hamas, and they turn out to be lies. There is also the issue of Hamas puposefully using their own population as a shield. For example, they launch missiles from schools and hospitals hoping that Israeli's will have the moral and ehtics that they lack.
The civilians on Oct 7 didnt deserve to die or be captured.
The people of Gaza don't deserve what is currently happening to them.
The difference, other than scale, is that one is still happening and can be stopped, and only one side has the power to stop it.
Then open the Egyptian border. Why hasn't that happened?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Rahvin, posted 04-25-2024 4:46 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 319 of 378 (918356)
04-28-2024 2:11 AM


The Latest From BBC
Six months on, how close is Israel to eliminating Hamas?
Noteworthy:
BBC:
It has been nearly six months since Hamas fighters broke through from Gaza into Israel on 7 October, killing about 1,200 people and taking hundreds hostage.
In response, Israel vowed to "crush and destroy Hamas" so that it no longer posed any threat, and to bring all the hostages home.(...) Before 7 October, Hamas was thought to have about 30,000 fighters in Gaza, according to reports quoting IDF commanders.
Many of Hamas's senior political figures such as Ismail Haniyeh, widely considered to be the group's overall leader, live abroad. But many of its military leadership structure are thought to be inside Gaza.
In a recent statement, the IDF said it had killed about 13,000 Hamas fighters since the start of the war, although it did not say how it calculated that figure.
Israel also publishes the names of individual Hamas leaders it says have been killed. (...)However, experts we spoke to said many of the group's prominent leaders in Gaza, including Yahya Sinwar, are still believed to be alive.

My opinion? Honestly after watching this whole situation (the war itself) develop and the global public reaction that follows, I do not vilify Israel as being a nation bent on genocide. War is hell. It is never justifiable but it occasionally is necessary. Note how even Pelosi herself urges campus protestors to denigrate Hamas as much as they do Israel.
No, Israel is not perfect. I did note their restraint in attacking Iran, however. I agree with Percy in that Netanyahu is a large part of the problem, as well as orthodoxy itself.
Israel would never agree to be disciplined and managed by the UN. She is the problem child for the United States, but lest we forget, she is our responsibility. We have made it so for many years.

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 320 of 378 (918357)
04-28-2024 8:09 AM


Santayana
I'm by far not the first to note this, but the same people who staged protests and sit-ins 50 years ago are now calling for the police to take action on protestors. They say it is imperative that order be restored on our campuses so that students can return to the classes that they're boycotting anyway. The lesson of Kent State has been forgotten.
This kind of hypocrisy of the old against the young is rampant across all life. No, you can't go to that party. No, you can't smoke marijuana. No, you're too young to have sex. Yes, you *are* going to college. No, you can't take a gap year and hitchhike across Europe.
I think most of the old remember their youth and are actually receptive and understanding. While they want the young to avoid the mistakes they witnessed or even experienced when young, such as getting pregnant or getting arrested for drugs in Thailand, they otherwise want them to experience all of life. But once in charge of something or in a senior position they ignore or forget these attitudes.
My kids are out of college, but were they still there then I would support their decision to participate, or not, in campus protests, and I'd wish with all my heart that they aren't hurt if they get arrested, but I'd be very worried, because the nearly fully unqualified immunity we've handed police has freed them to, unwittingly in most cases I believe, prey upon society.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by xongsmith, posted 04-29-2024 2:34 PM Percy has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 321 of 378 (918385)
04-29-2024 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Percy
04-28-2024 8:09 AM


Santayana
Percy writes:
the same people who staged protests and sit-ins 50 years ago are now calling for the police to take action on protestors
i'm not sure about this. seems no names are mentioned with this brush. Mark Rudd? Tom Hayden? Jane Fonda? Jerry Rubin? Abby Hoffman?
who are these "same people"?

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Percy, posted 04-28-2024 8:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-29-2024 4:01 PM xongsmith has not replied
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 8:20 AM xongsmith has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4501
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 322 of 378 (918387)
04-29-2024 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by xongsmith
04-29-2024 2:34 PM


Re: Santayana
I hadn't heard about these protests until we got home yesterday. I'm not famous, but I was a protestor 50 years ago and I am sure not calling for the police to do anything violent today, it always leads to police misconduct.
I always though this country was founded by protests.
As an aside, I have not supported U.S. aid to Israel since they started building settlements, but today I would be protesting other issues in our country that I personally find much more troubling and urgent. I don't go to public protests anymore (or any public gatherings for that matter, the last one was the women's march January 21, 2017) because of fears of MAGAts with guns.
who are these "same people"?
I was wondering that too!
ABE: and is "Santayana" a reference to George Santayana?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that it has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --Percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
Why should anyone debate someone who doesn't know the subject? -- AZPaul3
If you are going to argue that evolution is false because it resembles your own beliefs then perhaps you should rethink your argument. - - Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by xongsmith, posted 04-29-2024 2:34 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 8:24 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 323 of 378 (918393)
04-30-2024 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by xongsmith
04-29-2024 2:34 PM


Re: Santayana
xongsmith writes:
Percy writes:
the same people who staged protests and sit-ins 50 years ago are now calling for the police to take action on protestors
i'm not sure about this. seems no names are mentioned with this brush. Mark Rudd? Tom Hayden? Jane Fonda? Jerry Rubin? Abby Hoffman?
When I said "staged protests and sit-ins" I only meant participated in them, not led them. My post was meant as commentary on how attitudes change as one acquires authority. Columbia is now suspending protestors who refuse to leave.
But perhaps my generation, the Baby Boomers, the protest generation, has already passed out of a leadership role at universities and been replaced by Generation X which has no first hand familiarity with large scale government misbehavior and the protests of the late 60's and early 70's against the Vietnam War.
It isn't that this is Kent State all over again, not yet, but the anti-protest attitudes we're seeing today are the beginning stages. American support for Israeli action in Gaza is as big an atrocity as the Vietnam War. By percentage of population the death rate of Gazans far surpasses that of Vietnamese civilians. It is right that Israel's actions and our support for Israel are being protested, and university leadership today is following the same path of university leadership over half a century ago, hence the subtitle of this message.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by xongsmith, posted 04-29-2024 2:34 PM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by dwise1, posted 04-30-2024 11:56 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 326 by AZPaul3, posted 04-30-2024 3:50 PM Percy has replied
 Message 329 by xongsmith, posted 05-01-2024 12:50 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 358 by Taq, posted 05-09-2024 4:20 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 324 of 378 (918394)
04-30-2024 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Tanypteryx
04-29-2024 4:01 PM


Re: Santayana
Tanypteryx in Message 322 writes:
ABE: and is "Santayana" a reference to George Santayana?
Yes.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-29-2024 4:01 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5972
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 325 of 378 (918400)
04-30-2024 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Percy
04-30-2024 8:20 AM


Re: The French Way
Just remembering what I was told about the French student anti-war protests of the late 60's. I was told this by a French co-worker when I worked construction in West Germany in the summer of 1973.
According to him, the French government's strategy was to let the protesters get out of control and disrupt everybody else's daily lives. That caused public opinion would turn against the protesters strongly enough that they welcomed the harshness of the eventual police crackdown that reestablished order and normal life. Then, since the protesting students were of draft age and on student deferments, the government simply took their deferments away, drafted them into the Army, and shipped them out. To the public's relief and with their approval.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 8:20 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 326 of 378 (918407)
04-30-2024 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Percy
04-30-2024 8:20 AM


Re: Santayana
It is right that Israel's actions and our support for Israel are being protested, and university leadership today is following the same path of university leadership over half a century ago, hence the subtitle of this message.
It’s been a while since the American college community, disparate and fragmented across thousands of campuses, had a national focus this strong. Unjust wars and the “Powers That Be” supporting such is a strong motivator to the idealistic youth of this society.
But, the more the crackdown, the harsher the reaction of “The Establishment” to protests of their war, the more the protest fervor will spread and harden. Bad actors will be found in the student’s orbits and will be used as the excuse for all protestors to be labeled and brought down for subversion causing more reaction and sparking more protest.
This has happened before with great social shock to this society.
Regardless of political correctness the “jewish lobby” is a powerful political and social force in the power structures of American society. Their support and protection of Israel in all things can be extreme. In this war of ethnic cleansing, Israel’s massive overreaction to an unjustified attack, any criticism of Israel is labeled as unwarranted and is considered anti-Semitic, a step on the slippery slope toward Auschwitz.
This is meant to stop the criticism of an ongoing atrocity. That’s not going to work in this world today.
I was part of an old world protest from some generations ago. Kent State was real. Every protestor killed, hurt, fired, abused created three more. That spread across the society till it took down Lyndon Johnson then Richard Nixon.
Today, Israel’s control of the narrative is broken. Anti-Semitic is now like woke. The insult means nothing.
The best way to handle individual campus protests is to let them happen. Keep them safe, fed and clean. Give them plenty of space to shout and rant. Acknowledge their concerns. Let it burn itself out.
We’re Americans. When we get in the mood to protest you can fight us and we’ll fight you back. Or you can humor us, placate our emotions, and we’ll lose interest soon enough.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 8:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 10:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 327 of 378 (918409)
04-30-2024 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by dwise1
04-30-2024 11:56 AM


Re: The French Way
A bit of a rabbit trail, but thats essentially what we are allowing to happen with the shoplifters. We want the rest of the patrons to get so fed up with them that they support armed security. Some people will fight for what belongs to paying customers and not to them. What and society is supposed to simply build them houses and decriminalize their behavior?
Thats why a two state solution wont work. The money is in Israel. One cannot simply give Gaza welfare and equal status. The people need to earn it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by dwise1, posted 04-30-2024 11:56 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22607
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 328 of 378 (918410)
04-30-2024 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by AZPaul3
04-30-2024 3:50 PM


Re: Santayana
Police are donning riot gear near Columbia University. It’s like deja vu all over again.
—Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by AZPaul3, posted 04-30-2024 3:50 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by AZPaul3, posted 05-01-2024 4:51 AM Percy has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2600
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 329 of 378 (918411)
05-01-2024 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Percy
04-30-2024 8:20 AM


Re: Santayana
Percy writes:
But perhaps my generation, the Baby Boomers, the protest generation...
there is a tendency to lump people by the period they lived in, but i think that the protest generation was a small minority of the Boomers. most people were not interested and instead became the greedy economic assholes we see today. some 40% of the eligible voters wont even bother to vote.. some 30%-40% of the eligible voters will still vote for Trump - a number the Abby Hoffmans and Tom Haydens of yesteryear would have loved to love to have seen on their side. the bell-shaped curve extends way over on both sides and the bad guys are still a horrible force.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 8:20 AM Percy has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 330 of 378 (918414)
05-01-2024 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by Percy
04-30-2024 10:08 PM


Re: Santayana
If there is a similar outcome to last time the schools across this country may well erupt.
"A little revolution now and then is a healthy thing, don't you think?" from The Hunt for Red October.

“There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion,”
-Daniel Dennett
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Percy, posted 04-30-2024 10:08 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Percy, posted 05-01-2024 8:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 333 by Phat, posted 05-03-2024 9:43 AM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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